Hey!
So i have this Kicker L7 12" subwoofer laying around and i thought i'd use it in a TH fashion. So i took the SPUD 'leaked' drawing and adapted them to my application by basically making the box wider and accommodating the placement of the driver.
Here is how it looks like in the Sketchup:
Here is the Hornresp input:
Power response with no filters or EQ:
Filters and EQ applied:
GD graph:
Phase:
When looking at the power response with EQ and filters, seems like this driver can be very loud in this configuration. But when looking at GD and Phase, is there any hope that this sub will not sound like a lot of mud?
Here is a comparison of the same driver in a 90 liter vented box:
P.S. I asked a few related questions in the huge hornresp thread and then decided to start a new one in order to not clutter that thread.
So i have this Kicker L7 12" subwoofer laying around and i thought i'd use it in a TH fashion. So i took the SPUD 'leaked' drawing and adapted them to my application by basically making the box wider and accommodating the placement of the driver.
Here is how it looks like in the Sketchup:
Here is the Hornresp input:
Power response with no filters or EQ:
Filters and EQ applied:
GD graph:
Phase:
When looking at the power response with EQ and filters, seems like this driver can be very loud in this configuration. But when looking at GD and Phase, is there any hope that this sub will not sound like a lot of mud?
Here is a comparison of the same driver in a 90 liter vented box:
P.S. I asked a few related questions in the huge hornresp thread and then decided to start a new one in order to not clutter that thread.
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The same driver in a 90 liter vented box with the same low corner would have 180 degrees of phase shift over the pass band.
If delay equivalent to the path length is inserted in the TH sim, you should see around 145 degrees of phase shift over it's band-pass, the multiple phase "wraps" will go away.
The TH should not sound like "mud", though there may be some ringing noticed if used above around 70 Hz.
Looks like the L7S12 Xmax is 16.25mm, what excursion does it reach in your sim at 40v input?
Considering the high Le of that driver, the semi-inductance parameters should definitely be included in the model. Those will change the response at the higher end of the passband by a bit.
As per Brian's advice, i asked manufacturer to supply detailed t/s parameters of this driver. And - yes, Le is included in the model, as can be seen in the screenshot.
Well, i will be using it with my K-402-MEH replicas and those should be good down to about 40-50Hz.
I first thought that xmax of this driver was 20mm, but it is in fact 16.25 as it is confirmed by Kicker's support.
It can take 32V with xmax reached at about ~15Hz
Well, i will be using it with my K-402-MEH replicas and those should be good down to about 40-50Hz.
I first thought that xmax of this driver was 20mm, but it is in fact 16.25 as it is confirmed by Kicker's support.
It can take 32V with xmax reached at about ~15Hz
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I can also source Alpine 12 SWRD2 for cheap.
Here is how it models with and without EQ/Filtering:
GD seems a bit lower on Alpine than on Kicker. But ringing is comparable.
A few questions:
- When designing a tapped horn (or rather trying to fit drivers in an existing design), what one should be concerned about the most? Group delay, huge peaks, smooth frequency response? How much is too much for parameters like group delay or peaks?
Can you elaborate a bit more on this - are you implying delay between sub and "mains" or some other type of delay that can be modeled in HornResp?
Here is how it models with and without EQ/Filtering:
GD seems a bit lower on Alpine than on Kicker. But ringing is comparable.
A few questions:
- When designing a tapped horn (or rather trying to fit drivers in an existing design), what one should be concerned about the most? Group delay, huge peaks, smooth frequency response? How much is too much for parameters like group delay or peaks?
Can you elaborate a bit more on this - are you implying delay between sub and "mains" or some other type of delay that can be modeled in HornResp?
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Hi,
You mention one driver here, and your sketchup model seems to have about the right amount of space in it for one driver, but your Hornresp input screen shows 2 drivers in parallel - are you sure this is correct? (If so, that seems a pretty high compression ratio - are you sure these drivers will be happy with that?)
I'm not a tapped horn expert by any means, so I could be missing something here myself, but I wouldn't want you to build it then realise it doesn't perform as expected just because of an oversight like that.
Cheers,
D.
Hm, yes, that is a huge mistake on my part. Need to correct that.
With correct sim, this driver maxes out at about 113dB:
Thanks, man! )
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I've been using it since 2012.
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is very nice, if you took another rectangle and made it ‘bolt on with weatherstripping at exit, prior to an actual exit at the same location. You could add 1/3 the overall length of the existing pipe and create a dB gain/BP affect that would land right on top of the existing upper BW while creating a harder emphasis on some bass at kick drum sounds. Interesting would be the actual lower end then. Would it be perceived as ‘quieter’ or quickly fades to rolled off. Or would the room throw a turd in the punchbowl too.
Smooth, as in lacking a "saddle" shape between the low and high range of use is good to shoot for, but usually room response has so much effect that the shape of the response is not critical as long as you have DSP to work with. Deep (more than 6dB) narrow dips should be avoided in the pass band, as they may not be correctable- can't fix a phase cancellation within the horn.
Auto Phase in Hornresp may pick the wrong delay settings. The delay time should be roughly a negative second for every foot (30.48 centimeters) of the horn path as sound travels 1130 feet per second.
Group delay and phase won't be representative until subtracting delay equivalent to the path length, see posts #12-16:
Simple Tapped Horn Tutorial using Hornresp | AVS Forum
You should also apply filtering a few Hz below the lowest excursion minima (Fb), excursion above that can be as much as Xmax permits, but excursion below Fb is a mostly a waste of power and results in useless flapping noises ;^).
Your sim in #4 could increase level by 6dB by using a slightly higher filter.
Also, you can put two drivers in your tapped horn, the DTS 10 would be a good example of how to do it. In the DTS 10, one driver is reversed and also connected reverse polarity.
Art
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All I know is I originally had the sub firing into the corner. It cracked the walls in the room and the master bedroom above with less than 200 watts. When I flipped the enclosure 180*, the midbass picked up nicely and flattened the frequency response. I LOVE hearing boom bap tracks with it. Trap tracks cracks the walls.
😀 bass...a hard choice ! Destroy the house or not, lol! i cant put a paraflex in the house. Its absolute mayhem. But if i strip the paraflex down to the same thing as its longside path and move the driver over the same amount as was removed (ODTL/ tapped driver at exit) its the same bandwidth but a deliver thats not so hot up top and disquised down low. phase in the sim is very interesting in these things with equal/fair comparison. They skip over the same area (3 x qw Fb null).
Go to YouTube and search "boom bap" or "trap" type beats. Most 80's and 90's hip hop is boom bap because they sampled r&b and jazz drum breaks. 2000's trap is from FL Studio, Logic, or Ableton test tones.
Regarding samples, go to whosampled.com. More than likely, somebody sampled your favorite artist in a Hip Hop beat.
Regarding samplers, Google or YouTube Emu SP12 or SP1200 or MPC60, MPC2000XL, or MPC3000.
SP1200 is 12bit sampler.
MPC is a 16bit sampler.
Most Hip Hop purists prefer that crunchy 12bit grit from the SP1200.
Regarding samples, go to whosampled.com. More than likely, somebody sampled your favorite artist in a Hip Hop beat.
Regarding samplers, Google or YouTube Emu SP12 or SP1200 or MPC60, MPC2000XL, or MPC3000.
SP1200 is 12bit sampler.
MPC is a 16bit sampler.
Most Hip Hop purists prefer that crunchy 12bit grit from the SP1200.
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Ah yes, there was a special on with guys mix/mastering this. The beat is always a very hard kick/punch!! Totally tapped pipe area of excellent. I could really make it painfull if it wasnt a youtube dirty source, still its fuzzy eyed and face slapped. Pretty cool, thx man
Confirmed : Brutal (till clipping head unit signal or dirty youtube boosted) on a paraflex in an suv. 😱