Hi Everyone,
I just started a thread and I am looking for budget DAC. I am also considering DIY ESS 9038 Q2M DAC discussed here.
Here is the link
Hunt for budget DAC in today's competitive world
Hunt for budget DAC in today's competitive world
Can someone please provide me a link to the DAC that we are modifying here, the one Mark likes.
Mark can you please help me out in this?
Thanks,
Simar
I just started a thread and I am looking for budget DAC. I am also considering DIY ESS 9038 Q2M DAC discussed here.
Here is the link
Hunt for budget DAC in today's competitive world
Hunt for budget DAC in today's competitive world
Can someone please provide me a link to the DAC that we are modifying here, the one Mark likes.
Mark can you please help me out in this?
Thanks,
Simar
Hi Simar,
The original board favored in this thread is green and labeled 'SMBP CB' like the one at: ES9038Q2M DAC Decoding Board Coaxial Fiber Audio Decoder Module DSD DOP 384KHz | eBay
There is also a cheaper blue board version that most people seemed to feel was more cheaply made and less desirable: YJ-ES9038 Q2M I2S DSD Fiber Coaxial Input Decoder Board DAC Support I2S DSD 256K | eBay
In addition there is now a very similar looking board with two I2S inputs that we have discussed here a bit. They are probably okay for modding, although I haven't seen the bottom side of one to be sure. Also, there could be some worsening of jitter due to the I2S switching chip and its power quality.
All in all, I would not recommend these boards for "as-is" use. They sound pretty bad to me without modifications.
Regarding a good dac for $100, I would recommend not to focus too much on which dac chips are used. Most of the cost of a good dac is for stuff other than the dac chip, and largely it is that other stuff that determines most of the sound quality.
Having said that, I would probably look for any $100 dacs that have lots of good and reviews from many different people, rather than, say, just looking at measurements over at ASR (although those can be something to consider as well).
Another possibility I might consider would be building a Phi DAC from a PCB and components. More about that in another thread: lingDAC - cost effective RBCD multibit DAC design
Best,
Mark
The original board favored in this thread is green and labeled 'SMBP CB' like the one at: ES9038Q2M DAC Decoding Board Coaxial Fiber Audio Decoder Module DSD DOP 384KHz | eBay
There is also a cheaper blue board version that most people seemed to feel was more cheaply made and less desirable: YJ-ES9038 Q2M I2S DSD Fiber Coaxial Input Decoder Board DAC Support I2S DSD 256K | eBay
In addition there is now a very similar looking board with two I2S inputs that we have discussed here a bit. They are probably okay for modding, although I haven't seen the bottom side of one to be sure. Also, there could be some worsening of jitter due to the I2S switching chip and its power quality.
All in all, I would not recommend these boards for "as-is" use. They sound pretty bad to me without modifications.
Regarding a good dac for $100, I would recommend not to focus too much on which dac chips are used. Most of the cost of a good dac is for stuff other than the dac chip, and largely it is that other stuff that determines most of the sound quality.
Having said that, I would probably look for any $100 dacs that have lots of good and reviews from many different people, rather than, say, just looking at measurements over at ASR (although those can be something to consider as well).
Another possibility I might consider would be building a Phi DAC from a PCB and components. More about that in another thread: lingDAC - cost effective RBCD multibit DAC design
Best,
Mark
SUPERB!!!!
I could kick myself for not choosing the D50 at the time I opted for the Breeze Audio or hifime DACs.
Not only is the D50 a SUPERB bargain, Amir over at ASR reports ABSOLUTELY SUPERB metrics from his state-of-the-art Audio Precision System.
Review and Measurements of New Topping D50s DAC | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
A superb-sounding DAC that concomitantly measures superb. What a superb combo of superb circumstances.
This is the single most important comment of this entire, over-long thread.
I could kick myself for not choosing the D50 at the time I opted for the Breeze Audio or hifime DACs.
Not only is the D50 a SUPERB bargain, Amir over at ASR reports ABSOLUTELY SUPERB metrics from his state-of-the-art Audio Precision System.
Review and Measurements of New Topping D50s DAC | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
A superb-sounding DAC that concomitantly measures superb. What a superb combo of superb circumstances.
One might want to bear in mind that Amir does not measure every measurable parameter that affects or can affect sound quality. Thus, despite D50 measurements, D90 sounds better. Should be no surprise really. An AP measures a bunch of things that can be measured with an ADC, a DAC, FFTs, etc. If it were everything, then AP would be selling it on the basis that it could be used to completely predict sound quality before anyone ever listens to a device. Instead they wisely and correctly refer to some of the measurements as "figures of merit."
Having said the above, I better leave it there. Beliefs such as my own expressed above tend to provoke arguments around here sometimes. Please PM if concerns.
Having said the above, I better leave it there. Beliefs such as my own expressed above tend to provoke arguments around here sometimes. Please PM if concerns.
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To respond to some previous posts in a different context, I would agree that trying a bunch of cheap dacs trying to find a good one out of the bunch is a good way to waste money. The same amount of money spent on a D50, or another another dac that is a good value for the money, is probably going to give better bang for the buck than several cheap dacs could.
eziitis,
You could start such a thread. I don't even have a D50 to mod, and don't know that I have the time even if I did have the dac.
The other issue is that too many people are still intimidated by SMD. Some people refuse to try experimenting with a cheap SMD soldering practice board. They don't think they can do it so they refuse to try.
EDIT: Another thing someone might want to do is layout a 4-layer ES9038Q2M board with the idea that its for modding or just for building. A key factor would be easy access to signals, power rails, clocking, etc., and maybe a little extra room to prototype some circuit ideas on the PCB.
You could start such a thread. I don't even have a D50 to mod, and don't know that I have the time even if I did have the dac.
The other issue is that too many people are still intimidated by SMD. Some people refuse to try experimenting with a cheap SMD soldering practice board. They don't think they can do it so they refuse to try.
EDIT: Another thing someone might want to do is layout a 4-layer ES9038Q2M board with the idea that its for modding or just for building. A key factor would be easy access to signals, power rails, clocking, etc., and maybe a little extra room to prototype some circuit ideas on the PCB.
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SUPERB!!!!!!!!!
IAC, if ya kinda, sorta know whatcha doin' wit sum 'sperice ', y'all can kinda, sorta figga out most of it from pretty internet pics (so "No Purchase Necessary").
Pssst: Google Image view (big industrial secret):
PSSST: the above image is interactive with labels. Topping D50 review - DAC | Audio Monkeys
Ya' kinda kicked yerself in the rear with that comment .... what with all the $50 eBay boards you likely PayPal'd.
IAC, if ya kinda, sorta know whatcha doin' wit sum 'sperice ', y'all can kinda, sorta figga out most of it from pretty internet pics (so "No Purchase Necessary").
Pssst: Google Image view (big industrial secret):
PSSST: the above image is interactive with labels. Topping D50 review - DAC | Audio Monkeys
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Yeah, I have found pics from reviews before. However, I would like to know more than I can see in that pic. How about what are the frequencies printed on each clock? Where to the clock output pins go, directly to the dac chips, through something else? What exactly does the AVCC regulator design consist of? ...And so on.
If I had a board in front of me I could tell a lot more than looking at most of the pics I find. Also, with a board I could latch onto the I2C bus and watch the MCU program the dac registers, which can be pretty informative. All that having been said, a decent pic is better than having no pic
If I had a board in front of me I could tell a lot more than looking at most of the pics I find. Also, with a board I could latch onto the I2C bus and watch the MCU program the dac registers, which can be pretty informative. All that having been said, a decent pic is better than having no pic
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I guess something else that occurs to me is that if I was was going to spend $250 on a dac, I would probably be happier with Allo Revolution or Allo Katana than with D50. Just a preference. I know I would probably end up spending more money to upgrade the power supplies for the Allo dacs when I could afford it. At least I would have the option to make the dac better at a later date for less than the cost of a whole new dac.
I am pretty new here. But just a thought came into my mind. Seeing, the knowledge people have here on this forum. Can't you guys design a DAC from scratch? With any chip AK or ESS or any other DAC chip. I mean a PCB design, and then people can put components on it. I think improving an existing DAC would be difficult than designing a new one, isn't it?
I know most of us are reluctant in SMD soldering. So can PCBs be made with all SMD components already installed on them and then we can put other put hole components like caps, resistors and etc? I don't know if this is possible and there is a company that provides this service and is cost-effective.
What's the bottleneck here in designing a DAC from scratch? Time? Design? Cost? Or it's like after all this the cost is almost equal to what we already have in the market? Just trying to understand.
Mark any comments here?
I know most of us are reluctant in SMD soldering. So can PCBs be made with all SMD components already installed on them and then we can put other put hole components like caps, resistors and etc? I don't know if this is possible and there is a company that provides this service and is cost-effective.
What's the bottleneck here in designing a DAC from scratch? Time? Design? Cost? Or it's like after all this the cost is almost equal to what we already have in the market? Just trying to understand.
Mark any comments here?
If you care about possible arguments, a first step would be to stop expressing such beliefs. Then, guaranteed no arguments.
Just curious, preference based on what, your guts, extrasensory perception? You mentioned yourself you never owned or heard a D50.
GeekySimar,
Designing an ES9038Q2M dac board should not be too hard. The boards we mod in this thread are pretty well laid out. Extending the basic layout concept to a 4-layer PCB could make it significantly better. Mods are pretty well understood now, so it should be relatively doable to anticipate what kind of features dac builders might want to be able to implement.
The issue would seem to be that nobody who could do it wants to expend the time and effort.
For one thing, ESS dac chips are no longer the latest, greatest thing. Also, by now there are lots of reasonably good, reasonably priced ES9038Q2M dacs available in the marketplace. That wasn't so much the case when we started in this thread.
For another thing, over time we know better sound has become possible. AK4499 is/was worth working on, but after the AKM plant fire nobody knows when chips will be available again. Even where chips were here, cost and complexity of implementation limited a lot of people's interest in the part.
Beyond the above considerations, everyone is waiting for Rohm BD34301EKV to materialize for other than just Luxman. It should be easier to work with than AK4499, and so far the Luxman is getting very good reviews.
In short, most of the initial excitement over ES9038Q2M has passed. Many people seem to have moved on other things. The number of people still interested in modding one seems to have dropped to a trickle.
Designing an ES9038Q2M dac board should not be too hard. The boards we mod in this thread are pretty well laid out. Extending the basic layout concept to a 4-layer PCB could make it significantly better. Mods are pretty well understood now, so it should be relatively doable to anticipate what kind of features dac builders might want to be able to implement.
The issue would seem to be that nobody who could do it wants to expend the time and effort.
For one thing, ESS dac chips are no longer the latest, greatest thing. Also, by now there are lots of reasonably good, reasonably priced ES9038Q2M dacs available in the marketplace. That wasn't so much the case when we started in this thread.
For another thing, over time we know better sound has become possible. AK4499 is/was worth working on, but after the AKM plant fire nobody knows when chips will be available again. Even where chips were here, cost and complexity of implementation limited a lot of people's interest in the part.
Beyond the above considerations, everyone is waiting for Rohm BD34301EKV to materialize for other than just Luxman. It should be easier to work with than AK4499, and so far the Luxman is getting very good reviews.
In short, most of the initial excitement over ES9038Q2M has passed. Many people seem to have moved on other things. The number of people still interested in modding one seems to have dropped to a trickle.
I care about both, so as with many things in engineering there is a trade off involved. There are good reasons that the arguments have been going on for so many years. The arguments are no more likely to be resolved quickly than social polarization of beliefs outside of audio are likely to be quickly resolved.
However, I do get your point to the effect that claims not having scientific underpinning constitute a problem. Making people who disagree with you shut-up is not an acceptable solution, however.
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No problem, but then be prepared to get the flak and stop complaining about "arguments". You can't have the cake, and eat it too.