Thank you so much Simon for the confirmation and offering to help further. Considering my electronics IQ, I certainly feel I will need to reach out to you and other members for clarifications. Most of those will be silly questions I know but please bear with me. 🙂
Here is one for starters:
I am still confused about which sides of the WaveIO and Fifopi are isolated and unisolated? Could you indicate on the Fifiopi with the numbers such as J3/J5/J1... and explain the same for WaveIO too.
Thanks again
Here is one for starters:
I am still confused about which sides of the WaveIO and Fifopi are isolated and unisolated? Could you indicate on the Fifiopi with the numbers such as J3/J5/J1... and explain the same for WaveIO too.
Thanks again
The J5 side of the FiFopi is the re-clocked signals and why isolated from the J5 side of the module, also why separate PSUs.
The waveIO outputs go the J5 side and the J3 side goes to the DDDAC inputs. I would not worry too much about the deep understanding but of course ensure you connect everything up correctly!
The waveIO outputs go the J5 side and the J3 side goes to the DDDAC inputs. I would not worry too much about the deep understanding but of course ensure you connect everything up correctly!
Attachments
Absolutely true Doede, this sketch and for me the one in #7823 i guess (Without Arduino, etc.) is more relevant and is a life saver. However, some folks like me call out for extra life support as well so please bear with us 🙂
Of course and I always say a picture is 1,000 words. We are here to help and the effort is worth it too 😀
Is there an option of asking Audiphonics to take away the factory supplied clocks from FIFOPI and reduce the amount, as we are anyway buying Accusilicon clocks? Has anyone tried to return these stock clocks?
>>Each pack contains 5 such cables. How many packs would I be needing for the connections? I will order accordingly.
1 pack of each type will do. You need 5 wires for the WaveIO isolator (power in, BCK, LRC, data, and ground) and 3 for FiFoPi output (BCK, LRC, and data). Same three if you use U.FL instead.
Doede's image in post #7411 will guide you through the hookup.
link: A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)
This is already labeled on each board. Be sure read to the manuals in their entirety:
If you insist, the cheapest way is to just get a 2.54mm Dupont kit that contains both genders of crimp pins and housings. (Audiophonics does not sell these. Try https://www.amazon.com/Dupont-Connector-Kit-Connectors-Plusivo/dp/B078RRPRQZ) Search YouTube for "dupont crimping tutorial."
>> Did you mean getting these ones? Female - Female 2.54 to 2.0mm GPIO Jumper Wires 20cm (x40) - Audiophonics
I suppose theoretically you could use this for the FiFoPi to DDDAC connection. I use 2.54mm on both ends. This will not work for the WaveIO connection, which requires male pins into FiFoPi. In any case, there is really zero benefit to using a ribbon cable in your setup.
>> Which are the white jumper cable wires that DD uses? I think he supplied those with the kit too, to connect waveio and the board. Those are very sturdy.
I do not know what you are referring to...
1 pack of each type will do. You need 5 wires for the WaveIO isolator (power in, BCK, LRC, data, and ground) and 3 for FiFoPi output (BCK, LRC, and data). Same three if you use U.FL instead.
Doede's image in post #7411 will guide you through the hookup.
link: A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)
This is already labeled on each board. Be sure read to the manuals in their entirety:
- DocumentDownload/FifoPiQ3UltimateManualV3.0.pdf at master * iancanada/DocumentDownload * GitHub
- http://www.luckit.biz/documents/WaveIO/WaveIO_Infos.pdf
If you insist, the cheapest way is to just get a 2.54mm Dupont kit that contains both genders of crimp pins and housings. (Audiophonics does not sell these. Try https://www.amazon.com/Dupont-Connector-Kit-Connectors-Plusivo/dp/B078RRPRQZ) Search YouTube for "dupont crimping tutorial."
>> Did you mean getting these ones? Female - Female 2.54 to 2.0mm GPIO Jumper Wires 20cm (x40) - Audiophonics
I suppose theoretically you could use this for the FiFoPi to DDDAC connection. I use 2.54mm on both ends. This will not work for the WaveIO connection, which requires male pins into FiFoPi. In any case, there is really zero benefit to using a ribbon cable in your setup.
>> Which are the white jumper cable wires that DD uses? I think he supplied those with the kit too, to connect waveio and the board. Those are very sturdy.
I do not know what you are referring to...
Just for curiosity I checked phase noise graph of Accusilion clock. Plot is the same as the NDK*SDA XO. Even slightly worse. 45/49M is too high for good performance too. Maybe it works better with Ian’s board, but it looks like a compatibility issue.
Phase noise @ 1Hz 10 Hz 100 Hz NF
49MHz NDK *SDA XO 76 105 135 165
49MHz Aquasilicon clock 70 103 130 165
I used several different clocks with DDDAC (Ian's and KALI FIFO reclocker). To the current date my list ordered by performance:
1. NDK SD -> 2. Tentlabs clock -> (leap)-> 3. NDK SDA. -> (HUGE leap *) -> 4/5. Andrea's prev generation Discroll with Laptech XTAL / Pulsar clock ** -> (leap) -> 6. Rutger's clock with Laptech XTAL.
* There are other solutions between levels 3 & 4 on the market.
** 4 & 5 are almost equal, position depends on XTAL frequency.
All oscillators 11|12|22|24MHz, in most cases 22|24, I bought some 45|49 XTALs, but never used it. Gain from 384k records is questionable, losses in clock quality is almost inevitable.
At level 4 and above, noise on digital power lines is critical. It means what you need is extremely 1/f noise-free power for each IC in the entire SCK chain (=BCK for DDDAC): reclocker IC -> VHCT164 on main board -> digital power of PCM1794). For the last level I used Ian’s LiFePo PSU, Ian’s McFifo and an additional AC175 reclocker right next to DDDAC input.
At level 6 with ultra-high quality LIVE recordings some kind of magic happens: instruments are localized to small, precise points in 3D space. And when I switch in Foobar to such a high-quality recording, HD820 headphones immediately "disappear". No more "listening music". No chance to achieve this magic with 44/16 records🙁 What about other records? Well, higher level clock = more realistic sound. The final effect is clearly dependent on the quality of the studio recording, part of my collection of music with a really good clock now sounds disappointing.
As I upgraded clocks in DAC slowly, level-by-level, the more funny thing for me was upgrading some digital sources from production (level -1) XTAL to Andrea’s|Rutgers’s clocks. The difference is in the sound: you just launched it into space 🙂 Is the upgraded device now only 10 times more expensive?🙂
Anyway, Andrea found XTALs with exceptional quality.
And something about voltage regulators.
In my opinion, LT3042 is the best power IC for small-signal digital ever made, but it's noise performance is unachievable without extremely careful (and expensive) implementation. Unfortunately, there is no ready-to-wear LT304x-based regulator with correct noise-free implementation on the market. I used (ADP7188+LTC6655)+LT3042 and Tent shunts. It’s definitely best to use Tent shunts IF precise voltage levels are not needed.
Yuri.
Phase noise @ 1Hz 10 Hz 100 Hz NF
49MHz NDK *SDA XO 76 105 135 165
49MHz Aquasilicon clock 70 103 130 165
I used several different clocks with DDDAC (Ian's and KALI FIFO reclocker). To the current date my list ordered by performance:
1. NDK SD -> 2. Tentlabs clock -> (leap)-> 3. NDK SDA. -> (HUGE leap *) -> 4/5. Andrea's prev generation Discroll with Laptech XTAL / Pulsar clock ** -> (leap) -> 6. Rutger's clock with Laptech XTAL.
* There are other solutions between levels 3 & 4 on the market.
** 4 & 5 are almost equal, position depends on XTAL frequency.
All oscillators 11|12|22|24MHz, in most cases 22|24, I bought some 45|49 XTALs, but never used it. Gain from 384k records is questionable, losses in clock quality is almost inevitable.
At level 4 and above, noise on digital power lines is critical. It means what you need is extremely 1/f noise-free power for each IC in the entire SCK chain (=BCK for DDDAC): reclocker IC -> VHCT164 on main board -> digital power of PCM1794). For the last level I used Ian’s LiFePo PSU, Ian’s McFifo and an additional AC175 reclocker right next to DDDAC input.
At level 6 with ultra-high quality LIVE recordings some kind of magic happens: instruments are localized to small, precise points in 3D space. And when I switch in Foobar to such a high-quality recording, HD820 headphones immediately "disappear". No more "listening music". No chance to achieve this magic with 44/16 records🙁 What about other records? Well, higher level clock = more realistic sound. The final effect is clearly dependent on the quality of the studio recording, part of my collection of music with a really good clock now sounds disappointing.
As I upgraded clocks in DAC slowly, level-by-level, the more funny thing for me was upgrading some digital sources from production (level -1) XTAL to Andrea’s|Rutgers’s clocks. The difference is in the sound: you just launched it into space 🙂 Is the upgraded device now only 10 times more expensive?🙂
Anyway, Andrea found XTALs with exceptional quality.
And something about voltage regulators.
In my opinion, LT3042 is the best power IC for small-signal digital ever made, but it's noise performance is unachievable without extremely careful (and expensive) implementation. Unfortunately, there is no ready-to-wear LT304x-based regulator with correct noise-free implementation on the market. I used (ADP7188+LTC6655)+LT3042 and Tent shunts. It’s definitely best to use Tent shunts IF precise voltage levels are not needed.
Yuri.
Great to see your detailed observations. A wealth of knowledge.
However, this could not have come at a worse time for me than this, as I had just made up my mind to buy the accusilicon clocks with Fifopi. This hobby is endless and limitless!! Aaarrgghhh.....
Anyway, since most of the folks including DD have gotten satisfactory/good results with the accusilicon clocks, I feel it should be good enough for me too. I shall proceed with those clocks unless you suggest any other better clock at the same price point. My budgets aren't too high anyway...
However, this could not have come at a worse time for me than this, as I had just made up my mind to buy the accusilicon clocks with Fifopi. This hobby is endless and limitless!! Aaarrgghhh.....
Anyway, since most of the folks including DD have gotten satisfactory/good results with the accusilicon clocks, I feel it should be good enough for me too. I shall proceed with those clocks unless you suggest any other better clock at the same price point. My budgets aren't too high anyway...
I tried to get the grips with the Andrea Mori clocks (see threads here on diyAudio). I am sure he makes good clocks, but I honestly was not able to understand the different boards, options, acronyms, and how everything goes together. As it is, Andreas work is just a big question mark for me, and I cannot make use of this.
I have no idea what you mean by Rutger's clock. Could you provide some pointers or links?
It would be cool if someone who mastered all this could put together a shopping list for the "ultimate" DDDAC reclocker, and an overview description of how the parts go together (similar format as the diagram in post #8222, but focusing on the reclocker units).
@mbrennwa: Wrt Rutger's clock you can find a bit of information about this in the first posts of the TWTMC clock thread. Herbert Rutgers to my knowledge was one of the main initial inspirators for Andrea & his first clocks.
Cheers,
Jesper
Cheers,
Jesper
Aha! I found Rutgers stuff on his website: https://www.by-rutgers.nl/rutgerS-Clock.html
Next question: are there are any boards or kits available that could be used with the DDDAC?
Next question: are there are any boards or kits available that could be used with the DDDAC?
@gentlevoice:
Jasper, exactly.
Since I was late for first Andrea's group-buy, I had plenty of time to read the articles on Herbert's site. There are web-services for pdf translation, so I read all related articles originally written in Dutch too. Schematic is almost the same, parts-list is different, PCB is more close to the original docs. Plus, I ordered PCB from local manufacturer as their technical guys have special knowledge in high speed / high impedance / low noise applications (solder mask with reduced leakage used and so on).
When I was read what this clock used in pro recording studios and offered as product by Tentlabs|Grimm, it was more just for fun to make it "like in a pro studio". Maybe Andrea's TWTMC implementation even better, I not tested it.
Jasper, exactly.
Since I was late for first Andrea's group-buy, I had plenty of time to read the articles on Herbert's site. There are web-services for pdf translation, so I read all related articles originally written in Dutch too. Schematic is almost the same, parts-list is different, PCB is more close to the original docs. Plus, I ordered PCB from local manufacturer as their technical guys have special knowledge in high speed / high impedance / low noise applications (solder mask with reduced leakage used and so on).
When I was read what this clock used in pro recording studios and offered as product by Tentlabs|Grimm, it was more just for fun to make it "like in a pro studio". Maybe Andrea's TWTMC implementation even better, I not tested it.
@mbrennwa Sorry, no boards or kits at the time. If there any interest, I can share gerbers and BOM. May be slightly expensive, 2 Tent shunts + ATC clock-grade ceramics + low-noise resistors + AT-cut xtal from Laptech.
In a simple way, yes. For best performance high quality RF cables are needed (I used Amphenol), the reclocker right before DDDAC input is better too. McFIFO has holes for SMA/SMB/MCX connectors. Widely used FifoPI... need to check it. Honestly, for most DDDAC users best way to achieve fantastic sound -- persuade Doede and Guido to build new special motherboard:
1. integrated clocks and shunts
2. dedicated reg for vhct224
3. simple HC|AC175 reclocker before vhct224
4. 22|24Mhz clock outputs for external buffer|reclocker
Well, in this configuration, it is harder to avoid XTAL microphonics, but there is no problem with the clock and data lines. Simple and cheap U.fl connectors to Ian | KALI will be fine too. Unfortunately, after a lot of experimentation, I do think what clock could be the # 1 in the world, but most people lose all their quality, as it needs to deal with unmeasurable with simple equipment 1/f noise and struggling with RF design issues.
DDDAC is a single DAC on this site with a tight connection with the company, producing pro-quality clocks. Moreover, they were one of the first to invest in the significance of the clock phase noise (see dates in Herbert's files!).
1. integrated clocks and shunts
2. dedicated reg for vhct224
3. simple HC|AC175 reclocker before vhct224
4. 22|24Mhz clock outputs for external buffer|reclocker
Well, in this configuration, it is harder to avoid XTAL microphonics, but there is no problem with the clock and data lines. Simple and cheap U.fl connectors to Ian | KALI will be fine too. Unfortunately, after a lot of experimentation, I do think what clock could be the # 1 in the world, but most people lose all their quality, as it needs to deal with unmeasurable with simple equipment 1/f noise and struggling with RF design issues.
DDDAC is a single DAC on this site with a tight connection with the company, producing pro-quality clocks. Moreover, they were one of the first to invest in the significance of the clock phase noise (see dates in Herbert's files!).
Yuri, thanks you for your work and sharing your experience. That was very helpful in expectation setting of the use of different clocks
Indeed a good point you make on the clock frequency, whether we should take 22/24 or 45/49 families to play max 192FS or 384FS tracks on the fifopi - but having said so, you do not want to change your clocks again in a few years if this 384FS becomes a thing. But point made and everyone can make his own decision. Like some just take 5Mhz family as the only listen to 44.1 tracks 😛
Your "request" for the Motherboard is of course something I have contemplated many times the past years (no surprise I hope?)
I decided against it, as I want the DDDAC modular concept to be able to give a broad audience access to a great sounding DAC for a very reasonable price.
If now all great upgrades will be combined into one new board system, it will be become a super high end and expensive solution for a smaller group of people.
for this group however, there is the way of relatively easy DIY (hence this forum) - and somehow I believe that as soon as you make it "ultimate" a month later there is the new "Ultimate MKII" 😀
What I could do next year, maybe, is doing a crowd funding kind or thing for an "ultimate" MB (and dac module?) design, so I know if it will be worth the cost and effort - this could even integrate a FiFoPi kind of thing as "all in one" - let's see....
In terms of clocks.... thanks for all the tests you did and expressing where "easy" gain is to be made and how difficult it is to get the last juice squeezed out of better clocks.
All this (also before your post) made me think to get a reasonable solution for maximum clock specs but as a compromise to have simple implementation for most of the DDDAC and fifo users. See / read post of "mbrennwa" why this might be a point.
I will pick this up (for personal reasons) in January. The idea is (was?) to get 45/49 XO DIL14 clocks working in the Q3 fifopi with -115dB @ 10Hz. This should be probably the best you can get for easy DIY and having a very nice leap in SQ (??) Of course to be tested, and again a major time and $ investment from my side, so I am still not 100% on this, but we will see. Your experience shows it might indeed be the case that will give this nice jump in SQ. It need to be worth it ! 22/24 families probably will do a few dB better - but see my point earlier. (In case of a 11MHz family, the XO will do roughly -123dB by the way) This would allow for at least 88 and 96 FS...
But to dampen any euphories, this will come at a cost... end user price for such a XO will probably be between 400 and 500 Euro / single XO clock 🙄
as we say "to be cont'd" 😎
Indeed a good point you make on the clock frequency, whether we should take 22/24 or 45/49 families to play max 192FS or 384FS tracks on the fifopi - but having said so, you do not want to change your clocks again in a few years if this 384FS becomes a thing. But point made and everyone can make his own decision. Like some just take 5Mhz family as the only listen to 44.1 tracks 😛
Your "request" for the Motherboard is of course something I have contemplated many times the past years (no surprise I hope?)
I decided against it, as I want the DDDAC modular concept to be able to give a broad audience access to a great sounding DAC for a very reasonable price.
If now all great upgrades will be combined into one new board system, it will be become a super high end and expensive solution for a smaller group of people.
for this group however, there is the way of relatively easy DIY (hence this forum) - and somehow I believe that as soon as you make it "ultimate" a month later there is the new "Ultimate MKII" 😀
What I could do next year, maybe, is doing a crowd funding kind or thing for an "ultimate" MB (and dac module?) design, so I know if it will be worth the cost and effort - this could even integrate a FiFoPi kind of thing as "all in one" - let's see....
In terms of clocks.... thanks for all the tests you did and expressing where "easy" gain is to be made and how difficult it is to get the last juice squeezed out of better clocks.
All this (also before your post) made me think to get a reasonable solution for maximum clock specs but as a compromise to have simple implementation for most of the DDDAC and fifo users. See / read post of "mbrennwa" why this might be a point.
I will pick this up (for personal reasons) in January. The idea is (was?) to get 45/49 XO DIL14 clocks working in the Q3 fifopi with -115dB @ 10Hz. This should be probably the best you can get for easy DIY and having a very nice leap in SQ (??) Of course to be tested, and again a major time and $ investment from my side, so I am still not 100% on this, but we will see. Your experience shows it might indeed be the case that will give this nice jump in SQ. It need to be worth it ! 22/24 families probably will do a few dB better - but see my point earlier. (In case of a 11MHz family, the XO will do roughly -123dB by the way) This would allow for at least 88 and 96 FS...
But to dampen any euphories, this will come at a cost... end user price for such a XO will probably be between 400 and 500 Euro / single XO clock 🙄
as we say "to be cont'd" 😎
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