I went through the thread and am summarizing what I found in terms of your performance requirements:
- "most transparent & flat response"
-
It's honestly not a lot to work with. All these other things you are looking for are parameters, characteristics, minor details that can be accommodated to produce a usable end product. I'm going to copy and paste a list of questions that I posted in another thread that might help direct some of these decisions:
1) Listening distance?
2) Will there only ever be 1 person who is doing critical listening?
3) How much moving around will the listener(s) do?
4) What average SPL (at the listening position) is expected?
5) What peak SPL capability (at the listening position) is required?
6) What are the dimensions of the room?
7) What are the materials & methods for the room construction, including devices for absorption, resonance, and diffraction?
8) Are there any asymmetries to the room?
9) Can a standard equilateral / isoceles setup be accommodated?
10) What are the possible ranges of distance from speaker to side wall and to back wall?
11) What is the budget?
12) Is there a limitation on available power (amplification), in terms of watts or # of channels?
13) Is SAF or general aesthetics or a specific "look" a consideration?
14) Can DSP be used? If so, how much?
A lot of these questions can be answered with photos and info you've already posted, so right now these ones are still open:
4) What average SPL (at the listening position) is expected?
5) What peak SPL capability (at the listening position) is required?
11) What is the budget?
12) Is there a limitation on available power (amplification), in terms of watts or # of channels?
13) Is SAF or general aesthetics or a specific "look" a consideration?
14) Can DSP be used? If so, how much?
For starters, I would suggest targeting a peak SPL capability of 105 db (weighted for the types of music that could be expected) @ 2 m distance, from 30 Hz up. Thoughts?
- "most transparent & flat response"
-
It's honestly not a lot to work with. All these other things you are looking for are parameters, characteristics, minor details that can be accommodated to produce a usable end product. I'm going to copy and paste a list of questions that I posted in another thread that might help direct some of these decisions:
1) Listening distance?
2) Will there only ever be 1 person who is doing critical listening?
3) How much moving around will the listener(s) do?
4) What average SPL (at the listening position) is expected?
5) What peak SPL capability (at the listening position) is required?
6) What are the dimensions of the room?
7) What are the materials & methods for the room construction, including devices for absorption, resonance, and diffraction?
8) Are there any asymmetries to the room?
9) Can a standard equilateral / isoceles setup be accommodated?
10) What are the possible ranges of distance from speaker to side wall and to back wall?
11) What is the budget?
12) Is there a limitation on available power (amplification), in terms of watts or # of channels?
13) Is SAF or general aesthetics or a specific "look" a consideration?
14) Can DSP be used? If so, how much?
A lot of these questions can be answered with photos and info you've already posted, so right now these ones are still open:
4) What average SPL (at the listening position) is expected?
5) What peak SPL capability (at the listening position) is required?
11) What is the budget?
12) Is there a limitation on available power (amplification), in terms of watts or # of channels?
13) Is SAF or general aesthetics or a specific "look" a consideration?
14) Can DSP be used? If so, how much?
For starters, I would suggest targeting a peak SPL capability of 105 db (weighted for the types of music that could be expected) @ 2 m distance, from 30 Hz up. Thoughts?
I will! I´ll get some simulations and post them in a few days...
Never heard the satori tweeters... The look very flat... are they more revealing than scanspeak´s?
Never heard the satori tweeters... The look very flat... are they more revealing than scanspeak´s?
Isn't that putting the cart before the horse? How will the simulations help you figure out what you want to achieve? Don't you have to know how loud & how low these speakers need to go, even before simulating?
Imagine being a pro sound guy for a stadium and designing the system before even asking the client where the seating area is, or what type of music is to be played, or how loud (quantitatively) the listeners are expecting the music to be.
I mean, if it doesn't matter, then that's an entirely different story...
Imagine being a pro sound guy for a stadium and designing the system before even asking the client where the seating area is, or what type of music is to be played, or how loud (quantitatively) the listeners are expecting the music to be.
I mean, if it doesn't matter, then that's an entirely different story...
Hello 454Casull!!!
Interesting: )
4) What average SPL (at the listening position) is expected?
5) What peak SPL capability (at the listening position) is required?
11) What is the budget?
12) Is there a limitation on available power (amplification), in terms of watts or # of channels?
13) Is SAF or general aesthetics or a specific "look" a consideration?
14) Can DSP be used? If so, how much?
- I mix/master, at no more than 85dbspl, usually less. When a client comes to the studio it´s a different story, the like to crank the volume up a little bit more. Lets say 91? 95 max.... But I usually work alone.
- Listening position in the sweet spot is at 1.2meters
- I move around the sweet spot no more than 0.5 meters when I am working.
- Budget: Around 400/500 for mids and tweeters. I already have 2 Focal TC90TD5 that can be used. I like them, but if I can get something with more "deph", it would me nice.
- No limitation in available power. I have two amps that can handle up to 280w in 8ohms.
- Looks: I was thinking about something similar to ATC 110. Woofer and mid/tweeter off axis in the enclosure.
- No DSP. All passive.
- Not a small thing to add. I would like to have Bi-Amp wiring. Lows separated from the mid-hi.
Interesting: )
4) What average SPL (at the listening position) is expected?
5) What peak SPL capability (at the listening position) is required?
11) What is the budget?
12) Is there a limitation on available power (amplification), in terms of watts or # of channels?
13) Is SAF or general aesthetics or a specific "look" a consideration?
14) Can DSP be used? If so, how much?
- I mix/master, at no more than 85dbspl, usually less. When a client comes to the studio it´s a different story, the like to crank the volume up a little bit more. Lets say 91? 95 max.... But I usually work alone.
- Listening position in the sweet spot is at 1.2meters
- I move around the sweet spot no more than 0.5 meters when I am working.
- Budget: Around 400/500 for mids and tweeters. I already have 2 Focal TC90TD5 that can be used. I like them, but if I can get something with more "deph", it would me nice.
- No limitation in available power. I have two amps that can handle up to 280w in 8ohms.
- Looks: I was thinking about something similar to ATC 110. Woofer and mid/tweeter off axis in the enclosure.
- No DSP. All passive.
- Not a small thing to add. I would like to have Bi-Amp wiring. Lows separated from the mid-hi.
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I have to say, I missed the part where you mentioned what drivers you already had. Very embarrassing on my part. Sorry!
With that in mind... the SPL requirements are fairly low. This means that you could cross your tweeters a bit lower than you normally would, which means the sound field is going to be more uniform across a larger listening window. From a practical standpoint it may not matter too much.
My first thought is that you definitely don't want to run the Eton woofers higher than ~300 Hz. There is a cone resonance centered around 1.7-1.8 kHz, and you want to make sure your distortion products (e.g. 4th-order harmonic, 5th-order harmonic, and higher) don't excite that resonance, since the distortion products would be magnified to the ear by that resonance. Alternately, the woofers could be side-firing which would allow you to run them a bit higher, since the large off-axis angle attenuates the resonance and the "direct" sound from the woofer will be largely captured by the fairly high amount of damping in the room.
More to come.
Hey 454Casull!
Good to know! I won´t be cranking them really loud. Just loud enough to get the client a different "feeling" while listening to final mixes/masters at the sweet spot.
haha! no problem... I already have a Focal TC90TD5 Tweeter. really like the sound, but maybe looking for something with more "depth".
And a PHL 2011 8inch Midwoofer, wich doesn´t sound bad, but it has some weird thing going on at 1500/2000 Hz.
That´s a good trick about the Eton´s; make in them work at a safer zone. I guess I could work on 300hz and 3000Hz for the tweeter.
My major concern is to find a mid that can go, as flat as possible to 3k. And that can match in sens with the eton...
My options till now are:
- Scanspeak 15M/4531K Revelator 5.5" + Focal TC90TD5
- Satori MR13P-8 5" + Satori TW29RN-B
- Eton 5-512 C8 25RP Orchestra 5" + ScanSpeak R2604/833000 or Satori TW29RN-B
- SB-Acoustics SB15CRC30-4 5" + ScanSpeak R2604/833000 or Satori TW29RN-B
- Seas Prestige MCA15RCY 5.5" (H1262) + Seas Excel T25CF-001
- Audax HM 170 CO 6.5". + Focal TC90TD5
I´ll run some simulations this weekend. I am open to comments and suggestions!
Good to know! I won´t be cranking them really loud. Just loud enough to get the client a different "feeling" while listening to final mixes/masters at the sweet spot.
haha! no problem... I already have a Focal TC90TD5 Tweeter. really like the sound, but maybe looking for something with more "depth".
And a PHL 2011 8inch Midwoofer, wich doesn´t sound bad, but it has some weird thing going on at 1500/2000 Hz.
That´s a good trick about the Eton´s; make in them work at a safer zone. I guess I could work on 300hz and 3000Hz for the tweeter.
My major concern is to find a mid that can go, as flat as possible to 3k. And that can match in sens with the eton...
My options till now are:
- Scanspeak 15M/4531K Revelator 5.5" + Focal TC90TD5
- Satori MR13P-8 5" + Satori TW29RN-B
- Eton 5-512 C8 25RP Orchestra 5" + ScanSpeak R2604/833000 or Satori TW29RN-B
- SB-Acoustics SB15CRC30-4 5" + ScanSpeak R2604/833000 or Satori TW29RN-B
- Seas Prestige MCA15RCY 5.5" (H1262) + Seas Excel T25CF-001
- Audax HM 170 CO 6.5". + Focal TC90TD5
I´ll run some simulations this weekend. I am open to comments and suggestions!
Things seem to clear up here. 😉 Do you have any measuring equipment like a flat response microphone and an two-channel synchronous audio interface? Because constructing a 3-way crossover without it is fairly hopeless.
Since you have a wooden floor, consider that your floor bounce will be substantial and it will certainly color your sound. Have you considered waveguides for your tweeter? Or any directivity control on your speakers?
Since you have a wooden floor, consider that your floor bounce will be substantial and it will certainly color your sound. Have you considered waveguides for your tweeter? Or any directivity control on your speakers?
Hey markbakk!!!
Yes! Actually I have 3 Mics. 1 Behringer ecm8000, 1Sia RTA420, and 1 AKGC414 XLS.
I am using the C414 with calibration sheets, and REW. Apogee ADDA Converters and a Dangerous Music Monitor Controll with Mastering Grade DA.
Also I have a SPL Meter, and yesterday I bough DATS for measuring impedance and TS. I´ll guess I will be needing that as well. It´s going to arrive here to Argentina in a month. So I still have time to develop the project theoretically.
I do know about the wooden floor, although I have a rug below the mixing desk, and speakers are going to be higher than that usual, not floorstanding, but with pedestals.
My concern is my Mixing Desk haha! although I am not taking that away from the middle 😉
No Waveguide for tweeters, maybe, just maybe some kind of absortion material around the tweeter for slowering down diffraction. Kind of like Lipinski/Dunlavy monitors, where the tweeter is protected by foam.
I am still running some simulations, I´ll post some results asap...
Thank you all!!!!
Yes! Actually I have 3 Mics. 1 Behringer ecm8000, 1Sia RTA420, and 1 AKGC414 XLS.
I am using the C414 with calibration sheets, and REW. Apogee ADDA Converters and a Dangerous Music Monitor Controll with Mastering Grade DA.
Also I have a SPL Meter, and yesterday I bough DATS for measuring impedance and TS. I´ll guess I will be needing that as well. It´s going to arrive here to Argentina in a month. So I still have time to develop the project theoretically.
I do know about the wooden floor, although I have a rug below the mixing desk, and speakers are going to be higher than that usual, not floorstanding, but with pedestals.
My concern is my Mixing Desk haha! although I am not taking that away from the middle 😉
No Waveguide for tweeters, maybe, just maybe some kind of absortion material around the tweeter for slowering down diffraction. Kind of like Lipinski/Dunlavy monitors, where the tweeter is protected by foam.
I am still running some simulations, I´ll post some results asap...
Thank you all!!!!
You want to hang those floor standers on your walls, as in the photo you posted earlier? If not, you might be interested in something less "floor standy".
May I suggest the Open Source Monkey Coffin (OSMC):
I know you already have a different woofer and the OSMC is possibly a bit over your cost target, but it would otherwise fit your bill I guess...
May I suggest the Open Source Monkey Coffin (OSMC):
I know you already have a different woofer and the OSMC is possibly a bit over your cost target, but it would otherwise fit your bill I guess...
Not hanged! Just standing. It´s going to be a 80lt enclosure, so I am not far from that picture I posted.
Just small speaker stands, with the boxes on top of them. I need the tweeter to be at 1.2meters from the ground. Thats my ear level when mixing/mastering.
wow, that´s a long thread, interesting though! I´ll give it a read...
I´am making some simulations with the Eton and Satori mid with really good results I think....
just curious but, anyone listen to the ETON 5-512 before?
Just small speaker stands, with the boxes on top of them. I need the tweeter to be at 1.2meters from the ground. Thats my ear level when mixing/mastering.
wow, that´s a long thread, interesting though! I´ll give it a read...
I´am making some simulations with the Eton and Satori mid with really good results I think....
just curious but, anyone listen to the ETON 5-512 before?
The more I think about it, the more I feel like you're running into some limitations if you try to keep the tweeters you have. There's no lack of reasonably-priced tweeters that can get loud cleanly down way lower than the Focals, which really frees you up for the mid.
For example: SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 | HiFiCompass
Can give you a clean 100 dB @ 1 m down to roughly 1.8 kHz. Then for a mid that's only expected to do ~300 Hz to ~1800 Hz, you've got lots of options, my favourite being: SB Acoustics SB15NBAC30-4 | HiFiCompass
I'm not sure what prices are like in Argentina but I'm fairly certain these two tweeters and mids would fit within your budget. They're also very flat which should help reduce the component count for the crossovers, and coincidentally, also have the same sensitivity too (quite lucky).
If you're good with that, then you've just got to figure out your crossover and BSC based on what type of box you like.
BTW, for your bass driver, since you're running it up into the midbass region and (I assume) you won't have a separate sub or LFE channel, you shouldn't go vented since vented subs typically gas out around 100-200 Hz where the port starts to resonate within the passband of the sub, which is quite bad. Instead, you should pick from either sealed, MLTL, or tapered TL; fidelity (when properly designed) ought to be about the same between these types but MLTLs/tapered TLs gives you way more "free bass" relative to cost, power demand, and distortion levels. Tapered TLs allow for more output compared to MLTLs since the "port" velocity is typically much lower, but the latter are easier to build, and in your case you can probably get away with an MLTL. I'm not someone who can help you design one but there are folks here who can.
Random thread for more knowledge: Tapered TL vs MLTL
If you do have the ability to use a sub, build/buy one and put it underneath the desk, which then allows you to go sealed for your Etons without any practical compromises (xover at 50-60 Hz would be ideal).
For example: SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 | HiFiCompass
Can give you a clean 100 dB @ 1 m down to roughly 1.8 kHz. Then for a mid that's only expected to do ~300 Hz to ~1800 Hz, you've got lots of options, my favourite being: SB Acoustics SB15NBAC30-4 | HiFiCompass
I'm not sure what prices are like in Argentina but I'm fairly certain these two tweeters and mids would fit within your budget. They're also very flat which should help reduce the component count for the crossovers, and coincidentally, also have the same sensitivity too (quite lucky).
If you're good with that, then you've just got to figure out your crossover and BSC based on what type of box you like.
BTW, for your bass driver, since you're running it up into the midbass region and (I assume) you won't have a separate sub or LFE channel, you shouldn't go vented since vented subs typically gas out around 100-200 Hz where the port starts to resonate within the passband of the sub, which is quite bad. Instead, you should pick from either sealed, MLTL, or tapered TL; fidelity (when properly designed) ought to be about the same between these types but MLTLs/tapered TLs gives you way more "free bass" relative to cost, power demand, and distortion levels. Tapered TLs allow for more output compared to MLTLs since the "port" velocity is typically much lower, but the latter are easier to build, and in your case you can probably get away with an MLTL. I'm not someone who can help you design one but there are folks here who can.
Random thread for more knowledge: Tapered TL vs MLTL
If you do have the ability to use a sub, build/buy one and put it underneath the desk, which then allows you to go sealed for your Etons without any practical compromises (xover at 50-60 Hz would be ideal).
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I didn't see this part before I posted just above. Are you reusing existing enclosures?
Let’s be fair, TL systems resonate quite vigorously too. Each TL is a compromise between low efficiency at frequencies in the resonant domain of the system and unwanted line resonances in higher regions.
Those are good options! Yes. I would love to change my tweeter. I was actually thinking about the Satori TW29R RingDome Tweeter and Scanspeak D2608/9130 HDS. Still can´t make my mind... I´ll model with those sb too...
Honestly I am not that confident about making a sealed enclosure for the Etons. I already listen to them ported and they sound massive. Pretty tight low end.
Shouldn´t the port resonance be much higher? Unibox gives me a different result...
TL on the other hand; I really like! Always loved that low pressure PMC achieves on their desings. But I wouldn´t know where to start with TL. They require a lot of "give it a try", I guess? would the Eton really work for a TL?
Maybe if you have a really big box and a tuning frequency of like 45 Hz
The off-axis response on the TW29R (or basically any ring radiator or big dome that doesn't have a special horn/waveguide) isn’t good, which is very important for your application.
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So do pretty much any enclosure to some degree. I would suggest that once the ripple is tamed to flat or almost-flat through the geometry and damping, the resonances from an audible standpoint can be ignored.
Hey casull!
Enclosure is 80L, tuned at 31hz, f3 30hz. I already heard them with 60L and they where bit boomy, and with 100l got really deep and clear, but less punchy. I am going to try with something in the middle.
The satori spec sheet shows off axis response starting to roll at 3khz. The SS HDS at 2khz. I was thinking about matching them like this;
Eton 5-512 MW + Scanspeak HDS T: Both start rolling of axis at 2khz.
Satori MR13P-4 + Satori TW29R: Both start rolling of axis at 3khz.
And xo them at those frequencies... I like both options to match with the Eton. tomorrow I´ll post some simulations.
Do you think the HDS is better tweeter for mixing/mastering?
Enclosure is 80L, tuned at 31hz, f3 30hz. I already heard them with 60L and they where bit boomy, and with 100l got really deep and clear, but less punchy. I am going to try with something in the middle.
The satori spec sheet shows off axis response starting to roll at 3khz. The SS HDS at 2khz. I was thinking about matching them like this;
Eton 5-512 MW + Scanspeak HDS T: Both start rolling of axis at 2khz.
Satori MR13P-4 + Satori TW29R: Both start rolling of axis at 3khz.
And xo them at those frequencies... I like both options to match with the Eton. tomorrow I´ll post some simulations.
Do you think the HDS is better tweeter for mixing/mastering?
It sounds like you don't trust the simulations? But yeah, a box of that volume with a reasonably-sized vent shouldn't give any issues in the passband. Weirdly, the specs on Eton's website don't quite match up (the moving mass should be lower than is described on the spec sheet in order to achieve the stated Qes).
If you're looking at the red lines on SB's own charts, you should note that the red line on the tweeter curve is for 30 degrees off-axis, while the one on the midrange curve is for 20 degrees off-axis. Besides, simple geometry tells you that it's impossible for a ~1.1" diaphragm to have the same off-axis behaviour as one that is 4" or 5".
As I mentioned earlier, the off-axis response for that ring radiator sucks and you really shouldn't use it in your application. There's no benefit using it for what you want since what it gives you over the SB26ADC (clean, high output down low) is marginal, while the SB26ADC has way better off-axis performance.
Probably. Madisound says it's the same as the Peerless 810921 which was an excellent performer. Still, it uses ferrofluid which personally isn't my taste, and besides the SB26ADC has slightly better off-axis performance.
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With BR systems determining the port resonance is fairly simple. In metric terms the most severe and lowest resonance occurs at 343/(2 x L) Hz, with L = port length in meter. As most BR ports will be no more than about a quarter meter long, such resonances appear around 650-700Hz and up. For three way systems the issue can be solved by a low enough lowpass on the woofer.
In TL systems resonances occur at much lower frequencies. Along with clever design of the line itself acoustic damping is the only cure. And that leads again to loss of efficiency. And all of this is to be accomplished with more than a little trial and error.