Hi, sounds like you are dealing with bad recording and too much pocessing on top of it? 
anyway, some plugins offer linear phase filters so you can easily test that.
Some plugins just sound weird, maybe they have poor algorithms or something. Anyway, good performance with good recording technique doesn't need compression for example, unless for that compressed sound. Leave as much dynamics as possible and it will sound much. better than overly compressed and limited to death radio stuff of this century. Unfortunately too dynamic material doesn't get to radio... Make one version for the masses and another for your personal pleasure. At home, boost the track with volume knob and enjoy
ps. there was an anomaly to this pattern last year. Billie Eilish tracks seemed to be quite bit less pushed to max in radio than many others on the same channel. Lots of low end, sparse instrumentation, sounds good too with proper speakers.
anyway, some plugins offer linear phase filters so you can easily test that. Some plugins just sound weird, maybe they have poor algorithms or something. Anyway, good performance with good recording technique doesn't need compression for example, unless for that compressed sound. Leave as much dynamics as possible and it will sound much. better than overly compressed and limited to death radio stuff of this century. Unfortunately too dynamic material doesn't get to radio... Make one version for the masses and another for your personal pleasure. At home, boost the track with volume knob and enjoy
ps. there was an anomaly to this pattern last year. Billie Eilish tracks seemed to be quite bit less pushed to max in radio than many others on the same channel. Lots of low end, sparse instrumentation, sounds good too with proper speakers.
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Compression
Per others, it might be simple Physics again - compression may be significantly altering the harmonics, that your "ear" is picking up, so "phase" perception is on the right track.
Electronic instruments would already have unnatural sound envelopes, further "distorted" by compression in the final mix.
Per others, it might be simple Physics again - compression may be significantly altering the harmonics, that your "ear" is picking up, so "phase" perception is on the right track.
Electronic instruments would already have unnatural sound envelopes, further "distorted" by compression in the final mix.
Hi, sounds like you are dealing with bad recording and too much pocessing on top of it?
Some plugins just sound weird, maybe they have poor algorithms or something. Anyway, good performance with good recording technique doesn't need compression for example, unless for that compressed sound. Leave as much dynamics as possible and it will sound much. better than overly compressed and limited to death radio stuff of this century. Unfortunately too dynamic material doesn't get to radio... Make one version for the masses and another for your personal pleasure. At home, boost the track with volume knob and enjoy
ps. there was an anomaly to this pattern last year. Billie Eilish tracks seemed to be quite bit less pushed to max in radio than many others on the same channel. Lots of low end, sparse instrumentation, sounds good too with proper speakers.
Hey tmuikku
Oh yeah, didn't realize that hehe. So well at least in that case phase wasn't the issue, because I tried it on linear-phase mode and it had the same effect on me.
Thing is I'm not talking about my own music in this case, it's any music I listen to, on any playback system. Many youtube videos too. It's only the super clean pristine stuff that's ok, like current big budget films, big budget pop music...
But since I listen to electronic music mostly, and not the most commercial type, I can't even listen to music anymore without getting my ears plugged or feeling this pressure on my face and head after a while, sometimes instantly.
But still, this isn't about me just being able to listen to music, the heart of what I'm trying to do is remaster a lot of music I love to then share with the world, "perfectly balanced version"
That's my dream at least and that's what I'm struggling with so much. I also have my own album to deal with, but I'm leaving that for later!I don't think every music I listen to is a bad recordings with too much processing, I really think I've become absurdly sensitive to these imbalances.
But then I can't find the way to correct them because nothing I do works in the end, and every tool I use processes the audio in a way I don't like or at some point starts to feel bad physically... Also, I have zero idea about engineering so I'm just experimenting all the time without understanding too much. Still, I think I've tried a ridiculous amount of things
This is why I'm trying to find filters or plugins that truly remove unnecessary information, without "pressing down" on the signal, and allow me to dynamically balance everything so that it constantly makes sure the energy in all areas is even.
Recently I thought about creating an impulse response of pink noise and then applying it to my signal using a convolver, but what a surprise with it I start feeling a pressure on my face, and then I realize how it's "holding" the frequencies in a way that it doesn't let them relax. I really don't know how else to describe it, but it's as if the sound is never loose, breathing, like something is literally holding it and won't let it go...
And about Billie Eilish & the radio, I didn't know that!
Hey megamond, are you saying that the pressure I feel is due to the compression that was used in the original music?
If so, do you know if there's a way to sort of undo this?
The other day I found out removing the sustain of the low end using a transient designer gave me instant ear relaxation
Synth Drums
The Drum Synth sounds like it has a lot of boost > 50 Hz; probably so that it sounds good on car systems that have difficulty going below that frequency/are resonant at that frequency, due to the listening environment's size constraint.
The Drum Synth sounds like it has a lot of boost > 50 Hz; probably so that it sounds good on car systems that have difficulty going below that frequency/are resonant at that frequency, due to the listening environment's size constraint.
Audio Mixing
I'm more of a Video guy, only done a bit of audio mixing.
Anecdotally, when early car radios became popular, vinyl recordings simply frequency doubled the 30 Hz fundamental of the kick drum, so it could be heard over the car speakers of the era.
A lot of 80s Drum Synth (digital) recordings didn't have much output below 100 Hz, to fit vinyl LP track width of the era - modern digital media doesn't have that limitation, only that of the playback equipment, so similar to the early car audio era, it makes sense to boost > 50 Hz as even mediocre playback equipment will have some kick drum output.
Big PA midbass "slam" is in the 100-200 Hz region of the male voice, where you feel it in your chest at high SPL, so 80s era Drum Synths should impart this at high SPLs.
I'm more of a Video guy, only done a bit of audio mixing.
Anecdotally, when early car radios became popular, vinyl recordings simply frequency doubled the 30 Hz fundamental of the kick drum, so it could be heard over the car speakers of the era.
A lot of 80s Drum Synth (digital) recordings didn't have much output below 100 Hz, to fit vinyl LP track width of the era - modern digital media doesn't have that limitation, only that of the playback equipment, so similar to the early car audio era, it makes sense to boost > 50 Hz as even mediocre playback equipment will have some kick drum output.
Big PA midbass "slam" is in the 100-200 Hz region of the male voice, where you feel it in your chest at high SPL, so 80s era Drum Synths should impart this at high SPLs.
Compression and Timbre
Some research:
Compression and Timbre
How Compression Affects the Timbre of a Sound — Pro Audio Files
"In the book The Mixing Engineers Handbook by Bobby Owsinksi, the author interviews several prominent audio engineers on a variety of topics. On the topic of “Compression as an Effect” Andy Johns is quoted as saying:
'I use compression because it’s the only way that you can truly modify a sound because whatever the most predominant frequency is, the more you compress it the more predominant that frequency will be. Suppose the predominant frequencies are 1k to 3k. Put a compressor on it and the bottom end goes away, the top end disappears and you’re left with “Ehhhhh” [makes a nasal sound]. So for me, compressors can modify sound more than anything else. If it’s a bass guitar, you put the compressor before your EQ, because if you do it the other way around, you’ll lose the top and mids when the compressor emphasizes the spot that you EQed. If you compress it first, then add bottom, then you’re gonna hear it better.'"
Some research:
Compression and Timbre
How Compression Affects the Timbre of a Sound — Pro Audio Files
"In the book The Mixing Engineers Handbook by Bobby Owsinksi, the author interviews several prominent audio engineers on a variety of topics. On the topic of “Compression as an Effect” Andy Johns is quoted as saying:
'I use compression because it’s the only way that you can truly modify a sound because whatever the most predominant frequency is, the more you compress it the more predominant that frequency will be. Suppose the predominant frequencies are 1k to 3k. Put a compressor on it and the bottom end goes away, the top end disappears and you’re left with “Ehhhhh” [makes a nasal sound]. So for me, compressors can modify sound more than anything else. If it’s a bass guitar, you put the compressor before your EQ, because if you do it the other way around, you’ll lose the top and mids when the compressor emphasizes the spot that you EQed. If you compress it first, then add bottom, then you’re gonna hear it better.'"
Just listened to the LIpa YT Video.
It has NOTHING of what you seem to like, as in NOTHING AT ALL.
Her voice sounds dry and clean as if she were singing standing just by me, less than 50 cm away from my eardrums.
Not surprisingly, since all the air path her voice travelled was from her lips to the microphone diaphragm, and from then on, it´s all speed of light electricity.
To which was added a cheesy digital reverb, with parameters similar to what a plate reverb would do.
Remembering that a plate reverb is also an *artificial* reverb, better than a spring but not near any real room.
NO VENUE SOUNDS LIKE THAT , by any means, because any real/physical one will have tons more reflecting spaces at random places than any digital simulation can achieve.
FWIW among my many customers was Estudios ION, a "humble" but proudly independent studio, where "everybody" from Les Luthiers to Mercedes Sosa to Charly Garcia to Spinhetta to most Tango and Folklore artists recorded.
Estudios ION - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
One day they call me: "Juan, we have a problem with our Reverb, can you please come?"
"Sorry, I´m kinda busy, please send it to my shop, describe symptoms and I´ll check/repair it"
"Sorry, ours is not exactly portable, please come"
I *knew* their Reverb was very good, I imagined an EMT plate reverb or something very close (it was the 70´s, not much Digital stuff going around, even less in Argentina).
Ok, I went.
They took me to hatch in the floor.
"What, did you install it in the basement, to avoid ambient noise?"
They smiled.
They opened the hatch, there was a steel ladder going down, I climbed down: it was a bedroom sized room, fully tiled with kitchen/bathroom grade white tiles, including floor and ceiling, near one corner on a table there was a cheesy old cabinet with an 8" alnico magnet full range speaker , at the other end a large studio type microphone stand, those which look like a small crane and mounted on a wheeled base, with an *old* dynamic studio microphone, think late 50´s early 60´s vintage. And nothing else.
One of the best and most natural Reverbs I ever heard, only way to improve it would have been to use a real church as delay element instead of what amounted to a tiled (and empty) bathroom.
To achieve what you want, Dua Lipa should have recorded "dry" ... or with the weak reverb she used, it won´t change things much, then play it back through a Real PA at, say, at least Teatro Coliseo or Opera/Gran Rex as delay and re-record using microphones placed at , say, 10 to 20 meters away from stage.
And THEN she would have the full sound you like.
Not suggesting Estadio Obras and even less Luna Park because sound there is boomy muddy, but an open Stadium such bas River, Velez, Huracán, Atlanta, etc. would do fine, if you want semi open air (no roof, although walls are definitely there, just farther away).
MAYBE somebody can record an impulse with such a setup, capturing speakers and room flavour, why not?
Then you could use it to process your recordings.
"Drums" Compressor
Just a thought, OP.
I recall using a "Drums" Compressor setting on Adobe Audition software to liven up some thin old vinyl analogue recordings (Neil Young - "Landing on Water" album).
You could try a similar plugin on e.g. your Dua Lipa track above, to see if it gives the effect you're after.
Just a thought, OP.
I recall using a "Drums" Compressor setting on Adobe Audition software to liven up some thin old vinyl analogue recordings (Neil Young - "Landing on Water" album).
You could try a similar plugin on e.g. your Dua Lipa track above, to see if it gives the effect you're after.
Well, I hadn't really felt it had a boost on anything, just because I'm so used to listening to much messier music with boomy low end, so Dua Lipa's song in comparison to me sounds very flat and even hehe
Interesting. I can't imagine using compression for this reason only because as soon as I use it I feel the sound being compressed basically. But again this is probably because I'm working on music that is already compressed and limited, so I feel this would apply a bit more to the mixing stage, right?
Or maybe I just haven't found the right compressor, that instead of squashing it removes, giving this much coveted headroom to the rest of the signal so that it breathes...
I still have no answer as to whether a plugin that does this exists hahah
Just listened to the LIpa YT Video.
It has NOTHING of what you seem to like, as in NOTHING AT ALL.
Her voice sounds dry and clean as if she were singing standing just by me, less than 50 cm away from my eardrums.
Not surprisingly, since all the air path her voice travelled was from her lips to the microphone diaphragm, and from then on, it´s all speed of light electricity.
To which was added a cheesy digital reverb, with parameters similar to what a plate reverb would do.
Remembering that a plate reverb is also an *artificial* reverb, better than a spring but not near any real room.
NO VENUE SOUNDS LIKE THAT , by any means, because any real/physical one will have tons more reflecting spaces at random places than any digital simulation can achieve.
FWIW among my many customers was Estudios ION, a "humble" but proudly independent studio, where "everybody" from Les Luthiers to Mercedes Sosa to Charly Garcia to Spinhetta to most Tango and Folklore artists recorded.
Estudios ION - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
One day they call me: "Juan, we have a problem with our Reverb, can you please come?"
"Sorry, I´m kinda busy, please send it to my shop, describe symptoms and I´ll check/repair it"
"Sorry, ours is not exactly portable, please come"
I *knew* their Reverb was very good, I imagined an EMT plate reverb or something very close (it was the 70´s, not much Digital stuff going around, even less in Argentina).
Ok, I went.
They took me to hatch in the floor.
"What, did you install it in the basement, to avoid ambient noise?"
They smiled.
They opened the hatch, there was a steel ladder going down, I climbed down: it was a bedroom sized room, fully tiled with kitchen/bathroom grade white tiles, including floor and ceiling, near one corner on a table there was a cheesy old cabinet with an 8" alnico magnet full range speaker , at the other end a large studio type microphone stand, those which look like a small crane and mounted on a wheeled base, with an *old* dynamic studio microphone, think late 50´s early 60´s vintage. And nothing else.
One of the best and most natural Reverbs I ever heard, only way to improve it would have been to use a real church as delay element instead of what amounted to a tiled (and empty) bathroom.
To achieve what you want, Dua Lipa should have recorded "dry" ... or with the weak reverb she used, it won´t change things much, then play it back through a Real PA at, say, at least Teatro Coliseo or Opera/Gran Rex as delay and re-record using microphones placed at , say, 10 to 20 meters away from stage.
And THEN she would have the full sound you like.
Not suggesting Estadio Obras and even less Luna Park because sound there is boomy muddy, but an open Stadium such bas River, Velez, Huracán, Atlanta, etc. would do fine, if you want semi open air (no roof, although walls are definitely there, just farther away).
MAYBE somebody can record an impulse with such a setup, capturing speakers and room flavour, why not?
Then you could use it to process your recordings.
Hi JMFahey
I think you missed my reply to you a few weeks ago regarding venues, reflections, etc.
What I mentioned is that my references for a big PA system and the type of sound I'm looking for were all outdoors and I was positioned in the most direct possible way in front of the speaker.
One time it was on the beach and I was practically alone in front of this huge speaker, behind me was literally the shore and the ocean, and a few meters behind the speaker there was an open large tent, so basically no place for the sound to reverberate.
This dry, extremely direct sound is precisely what I'm trying to achieve!
And the Dua Lipa song as you say has this. When I hear it on different speakers, indoors, on headphones, it just feels like I get a very clean direct sound, as if I'm only hearing the main frequency of everything, which then stops immediately. Nothing lingers on or accumulates...
I know the slap bass funk style makes it sound more like this, but I've heard this in other pop tracks with different styles as well.
In comparison, the music I'm trying to remaster is all over the place in the low end, bouncing off and building up. And they also tend to sound muffled, like they don't totally breathe and there's this sense like it's a bit "behind the speaker", not truly reaching out and speaking to you intimately.
And again, this breathiness is what I felt on these big PA systems, outdoors, with almost no ambient reverberation, with the very same music I'm now trying to remaster.
As soon as I go into an indoor nightclub the problems appear for me, the boominess, the buildup of energy, to me there are always issues with the acoustics of the place, but it's possible that this has a lot to do with the music itself and how it sounds.
So again, what I'm trying to achieve is to take an existing piece of music and somehow force it to have this dry, extremely direct and clean sound, where nothing builds up unnecessarily and you hear just what needs to be heard for the music to be felt, but without ruining the musicality and feel, which is the hardest part.
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Sounds like you need one of these Exciter | Products for Professional Audio, Recording, Broadcast, Audio Applications | Aphex
I have one of the earlier models and it does allow some cleanup of marginal recordings, but it’s a fine line between a better/worse sound. In other words moderation is key!
I used it often on live ambience (stereo track) to add ‘presence’.
I have one of the earlier models and it does allow some cleanup of marginal recordings, but it’s a fine line between a better/worse sound. In other words moderation is key!
I used it often on live ambience (stereo track) to add ‘presence’.
On the whole I suspect that it would be as 'successful' as the microphone modelling software. With that you can make a Neumann realistically sound like an SM57 but you can't make an SM57 sound like a real Neumann.
So I believe you could use software to make a large PA sound like a small speaker but not the other way around.
Just my 2 pence...
So I believe you could use software to make a large PA sound like a small speaker but not the other way around.
Just my 2 pence...
interesting problem in that the moment you have a loudspeaker in a confined space you inevitably have stored energy....and i could be wrong but doesn't that mean the way to recreate the "outdoor PA" feel is to control the RT60 time constant to a minimum at all frequencies?
what about the ground plane? was your comparison system flown or ground stacked?
what about the ground plane? was your comparison system flown or ground stacked?
Yeah, it seems more and more this is a dead end... I'm still insisting on it banging my head everyday and will continue until who knows when
Especially because of this feeling that some productions somewhat have these characteristics I'm looking for. Though it may have to do with special equipment being used, something I would not have access to.
Hey turk 182. To be honest I have no idea what any of those things are!
I looked up RT60 and I would say yes, it would be amazing to be able to shape that at a digital level, but I couldn't find a software that does this... Do you know of any?
As far as ground plane, system flown or ground stacked I really don't know what you mean. Again, I'm not building a speaker, just working in the digital domain with audio files & plugins.
Multiband Compressor
There's a setting for emphasising a drum kit.
Adobe Audition How To: Multiband Compressor - YouTube
There's a setting for emphasising a drum kit.
Adobe Audition How To: Multiband Compressor - YouTube
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