Hi Damo s. No, I actually want to master music in a way that it somewhat resembles the tonal characteristics and physical feel of it being projected through a specific PA system.
Are these impulse & convolution responses already available? And is there software you know that would take that information and apply the effect onto an incoming signal?
I had read a bit about impulse responses before but I couldn't find anything like this...
ah ok, but I struggle to see how you can achieve that without actually having a kick *** system in the first place. You wont get anything like the bass response and punch out of those studio monitors.
It's certainly true that some tracks sound fairly lackluster on household systems but then absolutely come alive on big systems. Its never entirely obvious why that is the case, but it just happens.
Referencing is probably the only way you will be able to achieve that. I,e. go to a club (or where ever) with a great PA, listen to the tracks, pick out the ones which sound best to you, acquire them, and reference them in your studio. This is the process I use during the mix down stage of my productions. The track output and reference track is split into bands and then A B the individual bands whilst adjusting to get the levels and balance to the best of my (perhaps limited) ability. Works quite well.
The mastering engineer I use (house and techno) has several different pairs of monitors in his studio and makes use of all of them. No one monitor is ever perfect so he strikes a balance across all 3. I guess over the years he has learnt what tonal balance he needs to achieve on his monitors so they translate to sounding full and fat on PA systems.
Hey Damo s. I don't actually want nor expect my monitors to sound like a PA system, what I'm trying to do is extract the philosophy of what makes certain systems sound good and translate and apply that to any music in the mastering stage, so that the actual audio has these characteristics embedded into them.
It's really an experiment combining different things to create my own mastering style basically
Thanks for your thoughts!
It's really an experiment combining different things to create my own mastering style basically
Thanks for your thoughts!
Might be able to get some control over that with digital effects processing, I have a tc electronics that was fairly inexpensive, with it I can put a little more live into live master recordings I’ve made, bought it when I got my marantz portable digital recorder......gotta be careful though, it’s a fine line.
the current standard of evaluating simulations is based on "visual" data displayed in graphical form. if designers where able to pre evaluate there creations by the same sense it's intended to stimulate as an end product would that not be a good thing?
determining the overall sonic effects of design changes long before any material is cut molded or potentially wasted because something was "overlooked" and the sonic end result is not what was sought after would that not be a good thing?
i could be wrong about this but i think that much of what you may be looking for is the ability of a large scale PA to produce a visceral response in the listener.
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I totally agree that having a simulation closer to what will be the end result, and not something abstract or purely mathematical or purely visual would be an amazing thing!
And yeah, I'm constantly focusing on how sound waves reach the ears and body, the harmony between them and the listener, which I find affects very much how you perceive music and ultimately how you feel.
Hi mountainman bob, could you say which device you are referring to specifically?
TC Electronic | Product | M350
I have the m-350, I think there's a better one m 2000 maybe? they can be picked up on fleabay fairly inexpensive.
I have the m-350, I think there's a better one m 2000 maybe? they can be picked up on fleabay fairly inexpensive.
I'm interested in this since I have noticed that in night club scenes in films the sound is completely different to if I play the same track direct - the bass seems deeper somehow among other things. I don't know if music is being played when they film the scene or added after with the effect that you are looking for. They might record the night club system playing music separately, anything is possible in the movies
Sorry, not much help in there...
Brian
Sorry, not much help in there...
Brian
It's funny you mention films, because in big Hollywood productions I've always noticed they have a particular way of presenting sound & music so that it has this same breathiness and physically pleasant aspect, which I imagine has to do with the fact that it needs to be played at high volumes in the cinema, so if this wasn't well done people would start feeling uncomfortable and it would totally ruin the experience.
The difference here is that I find this is in the movie itself (like what I'm trying to do), not necessarily the sound system through which it's played, so when watching at home it's more or less the same experience. I've been trying to analyze what makes them sound the way they sound and it's really difficult, for me at least. One thing I did conclude is they have a dip at around 200hz, but I don't know exactly what tools they use to do it and how they use them, which makes the whole difference. Probably all hardware though
A clue may be found in figuring out what is done recording music videos, they seem to have an over the top realism up to a certain volume level (the better sq ones about 100db or so) but over that they come undone. It’s especially noticeable on YouTube music videos......not sure if it’s something YT does or if it’s baked into the production itself?
I guess with films they are typical played through home surround systems or at the cinema but not at a massively loud level, so can make it sweeter by adding a smile curve, and perhaps enhance the low end rumble by adding harmonics.
if you do this to music it may sound nice on a PA / cinema system but will probably sound a bit whack on budget, PC speakers, and cheap headphones, and that is how many potential buyers of the music will be auditioning before purchase.
When it comes to music, if your track sounds different to everyone elses then people probably wont buy it, it iwll stick out like a sore thumb. as someone who listens through 100s a week on download sites this is all to common. many, I dont think, have even been mastered and just sound rubbish compared with the bigger labels who spend good money on a proper release package.
if you do this to music it may sound nice on a PA / cinema system but will probably sound a bit whack on budget, PC speakers, and cheap headphones, and that is how many potential buyers of the music will be auditioning before purchase.
When it comes to music, if your track sounds different to everyone elses then people probably wont buy it, it iwll stick out like a sore thumb. as someone who listens through 100s a week on download sites this is all to common. many, I dont think, have even been mastered and just sound rubbish compared with the bigger labels who spend good money on a proper release package.
The greater problem would be that it is coming out of a different speaker. What happens in this room will add to what you are creating here.
There is a certain person (not on this site) which likes to popularise this.Sangram said:
Well, I don't know which music videos you're referring to, but a lot of pop music has what I consider to be the best quality in music production, and is probably my top reference in that respect. Realism is an interesting word to use! I also feel the videos sometimes have a little extra work done on the music, but I have no idea if that's the case.
What do you mean they come undone?
Thanks for the comments!
I usually feel at the cinema they play at really loud levels, to create a totally immersive experience, but that it's so well done that it feels nice & comfy and one shouldn't be thinking it's loud...
Actually the point of my project is to exploit any music's potential and make it sound great anywhere, so that within the limitations of each playback device it sounds as best as it possibly can. I find many PA systems actually reveal what is wrong at the production/mastering level, so ideally what I will do to music would prevent this from happening, as no matter how loud you play it back, how big or small the system is, the balance will still remain.
Absolutely, though again the idea would be to have an approximation as to how the sound is projected, to sculpt it in a way so that it resembles how it felt to me coming out of those other systems. I don't intend for it to sound exactly the same, just get a similar sensation I guess... and also on headphones or any other device, that's the idea
What is meant is that (at least for me) you can’t play them any louder than a certain level without distortion becoming unbearable. This level is much lower than the standard album version of the same song.
It may be just a function of the format compression, when referenced against the original it’s obvious. But there’s something about most of them that is pleasantly livelier than the original up to the point where it “comes undone” ......I have no idea what it might be though.
It may be just a function of the format compression, when referenced against the original it’s obvious. But there’s something about most of them that is pleasantly livelier than the original up to the point where it “comes undone” ......I have no idea what it might be though.
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A well configured PA system run well within its limits sounds like a Hi-Fi but with extreme clarity and no compression of dynamics. A system that can produce 120dB+ in the listening position has negligible distortion at more conventional levels. See this old JBL document:
http://www.cieri.net/Documenti/JBL/...'s Quest for the Ultimate JBL Home System.pdf
For me the revelation that Hi-Fi gear (small speakers) where not the way forward came when I head a system using Orbit 4 tops and 18" reflex subs. The orbit 4 is a tri amplified point source horn loaded top. It is objectively better than the typical hi-fi speaker with a few small drivers on a flat baffle:
Soundgear - Speakers - Amplifiers - DSP
Specifically if your listening to electronic music on a club system there are some EQ tricks as well, bass boost <150Hz (rising so that the boost at 30Hz can be quite extreme, perhaps +10dB relative to midband) with perhaps a small peak around 80-90 Hz to bring out the kick and a narrow PEQ around -4dB @ 5kHz to remove harshness. Exactly what works is a bit room and setup dependent so I tune this bit by ear. The problem is that if you do this EQ on a home system you will just get a lot of distortion as the subs won't like it and the EQ settings that work best for dance music will not be the best for other genres. Also if you bake this kind of EQ into your tracks then when played back on a club system it will have too much bass.
http://www.cieri.net/Documenti/JBL/...'s Quest for the Ultimate JBL Home System.pdf
For me the revelation that Hi-Fi gear (small speakers) where not the way forward came when I head a system using Orbit 4 tops and 18" reflex subs. The orbit 4 is a tri amplified point source horn loaded top. It is objectively better than the typical hi-fi speaker with a few small drivers on a flat baffle:
Soundgear - Speakers - Amplifiers - DSP
Specifically if your listening to electronic music on a club system there are some EQ tricks as well, bass boost <150Hz (rising so that the boost at 30Hz can be quite extreme, perhaps +10dB relative to midband) with perhaps a small peak around 80-90 Hz to bring out the kick and a narrow PEQ around -4dB @ 5kHz to remove harshness. Exactly what works is a bit room and setup dependent so I tune this bit by ear. The problem is that if you do this EQ on a home system you will just get a lot of distortion as the subs won't like it and the EQ settings that work best for dance music will not be the best for other genres. Also if you bake this kind of EQ into your tracks then when played back on a club system it will have too much bass.
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