Hey guys, first time DIY here.
A small backstory and goals for my project..
I currently own a pair of B&W 705 s2 bookshelfs, they do sound good (very revealing and transparent) but I'd want something else and that something
is dynamics and midbass presence. I recognize that these bookshelvs do sound very good on reference material music, but older music, they just sound very tamed with little dynamics to it. Like if you hit up ACDC the bassdrum just sounds abit "lame", the guitars sounds quite abit meh aswell
(I can describe the guitar as the sound comes from a pair of audiophilespeakers rather than an actual guitar cabinet).
So I'd like something thats quite accurate but can deliver good punch in less bassheavy music like older mixed music without it being "bassy". (If thats even possible) Currently running the bookshelvs with a Hegel H90, also tried with h190 which is quiteabit beefier, however it's still lacks that presence.
The idea of the build was NOT to build myself a bass-monster, but rather get the definition in these critical mid bass area and midrange that makes music so much fun and engaging.
Like when you hear a cello you just get that presence of the full body of it, it pops the heck out delivering depth to the touch of the instrument.
Ive been messing with VituixCAD for quiteawhile now, however I have no previous experience at all building speakers. And with that lack of experience i do not know wether
I completely messed up anything very basic. I have never built a crossover but tought myself
the basics(from what I know in speaker-design and crossover design). Im more worried about the stuff that I don't currently know of which might be plenty.
My initial design goals:
My initial design:
Current elements in the design…
Currently I have two setups one more classic:
Setup1:
Setup2:
Ill attatch a picture or two of the basic ideas..(not 100% to scale..)
These two depends quiteabit on the height of the speaker, my thought on the latter was that the tweeter and the midwoofers would "theoretically"
be more aligned given that the seating position is in a more narrow sweetspot vertically(aka ears by the tweeter).. (my logic is that both woofers shares the same distance to the listeners ears since tweeter is in the middle yielding more precise phase)
Extra:
The idea was scan-speak drivers using their revelator series and ive simumlated in this example a seas millenium tweeter. While the woofers im pretty sure i like the combination (except maybe the "sub woof" which depends on exactly how large i make my cabsize)
the tweeter is abit work in progress aswell (might checkout the satori berylium tweeter).
The "easiest/working" simulation of a crossiver ive found so far was using 2nd orders using VituixCAD.
It currently has not baffle-step compensation to it, nor any simulations towards baffle-diffraction(so keep that in-mind).
The elements are 8ohm , but the speaker seems to act more of a 6ohm rated using this specific crossover due to some overlap which i deem as worthy sacrifice.
Ported or passive rad is yet to be decided..
Questions:
A small backstory and goals for my project..
I currently own a pair of B&W 705 s2 bookshelfs, they do sound good (very revealing and transparent) but I'd want something else and that something
is dynamics and midbass presence. I recognize that these bookshelvs do sound very good on reference material music, but older music, they just sound very tamed with little dynamics to it. Like if you hit up ACDC the bassdrum just sounds abit "lame", the guitars sounds quite abit meh aswell
(I can describe the guitar as the sound comes from a pair of audiophilespeakers rather than an actual guitar cabinet).
So I'd like something thats quite accurate but can deliver good punch in less bassheavy music like older mixed music without it being "bassy". (If thats even possible) Currently running the bookshelvs with a Hegel H90, also tried with h190 which is quiteabit beefier, however it's still lacks that presence.
The idea of the build was NOT to build myself a bass-monster, but rather get the definition in these critical mid bass area and midrange that makes music so much fun and engaging.
Like when you hear a cello you just get that presence of the full body of it, it pops the heck out delivering depth to the touch of the instrument.
Ive been messing with VituixCAD for quiteawhile now, however I have no previous experience at all building speakers. And with that lack of experience i do not know wether
I completely messed up anything very basic. I have never built a crossover but tought myself
the basics(from what I know in speaker-design and crossover design). Im more worried about the stuff that I don't currently know of which might be plenty.
My initial design goals:
- Good horizontal off axis.
- Fun engaging/dynamic and natural presence to instruments.
- Can play orchestral music and bigger pieces without sounding "flat".
- Reasonable easy to drive impedance and sensitivity wise.
My initial design:
- Timealligned woofers tweeter.
- 4way with a 6,5inch midbass coupler woofer.
- 70-85litre cab(empty)
Current elements in the design…
- (TBD) Tweeter (1inch) Seas Excel E0011-06 T25CF002 Millenium -> https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachment/file/e/0/e0011_t25cf002_millennium_datasheet.pdf
- High-mid (4,5inch) Scan-Speak Illuminator 12MU/8731T00 -> https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachment/file/1/2/12mu-8731t00.pdf
- Mid-bass (6,5inch) Scan-Speak Revelator 18W/8531G00-> https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachment/file/1/8/18w-8531g00.pdf
- (TBD) Bass (8inch) Scan-Speak Revelator 22W/8851T00 -> https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachment/file/2/2/22w-8851t00.pdf
Currently I have two setups one more classic:
Setup1:
- Tweeter 1inch
- Upper mid woof 4,5inch
- Midbass woof 6,5inch
- bass woof 8inch +
Setup2:
- Upper midwoof 4,5inch
- Tweeter 1inch
- Midbass woof 6,5inch
- bass woof 8inch +
Ill attatch a picture or two of the basic ideas..(not 100% to scale..)
These two depends quiteabit on the height of the speaker, my thought on the latter was that the tweeter and the midwoofers would "theoretically"
be more aligned given that the seating position is in a more narrow sweetspot vertically(aka ears by the tweeter).. (my logic is that both woofers shares the same distance to the listeners ears since tweeter is in the middle yielding more precise phase)
Extra:
The idea was scan-speak drivers using their revelator series and ive simumlated in this example a seas millenium tweeter. While the woofers im pretty sure i like the combination (except maybe the "sub woof" which depends on exactly how large i make my cabsize)
the tweeter is abit work in progress aswell (might checkout the satori berylium tweeter).
The "easiest/working" simulation of a crossiver ive found so far was using 2nd orders using VituixCAD.
It currently has not baffle-step compensation to it, nor any simulations towards baffle-diffraction(so keep that in-mind).
The elements are 8ohm , but the speaker seems to act more of a 6ohm rated using this specific crossover due to some overlap which i deem as worthy sacrifice.
Ported or passive rad is yet to be decided..
Questions:
- Does anything of this make any sense?
- I recognize that the crossover due to baffle-diffraction and time alignment have to be remoddeled and tweaked extensivly after the fact, do you guys use in-room measurments for that? Like do you start with the manufacturs given ZMA FRD or do you start with your own measurments in-cab?
- The crossover i attatched is there anything wrong with it? or can i use that as a base?
Attachments
Admire your initiative. The question is, which do you want more: new speakers for listening; or the challenge of designing? If the former, and based on your image, I'd suggest checking the Elsinore thread, or researching Troels Gravesen's various builds. If the latter, there are others far more knowledgeable than I to guide you. Either way, have fun.
I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but the probability that you get something better that what you have now, for a first (and complex) design is near zero.
If you want to build a 3-way (*), search a design from a reputable designer, you'll have lot of things to get right on the build. If you want to start designing start with a 2-way and best use inexpensive drivers. If you go down this route you need to learn the art of compromises.
Ralf
(*) Your choice of drivers isn't logical. If your bass is a 8", make a 3-way and not a 4-way, with a 4-5" mid and a 0.75-1" tweeter
If you want to build a 3-way (*), search a design from a reputable designer, you'll have lot of things to get right on the build. If you want to start designing start with a 2-way and best use inexpensive drivers. If you go down this route you need to learn the art of compromises.
Ralf
(*) Your choice of drivers isn't logical. If your bass is a 8", make a 3-way and not a 4-way, with a 4-5" mid and a 0.75-1" tweeter
About the crossover.
You need to simulate the baffle step effect and diffraction for all drivers, the cab effect for all drivers but the tweeter, and only then start designing the crossover. And I bet you didn't set the correct delay between the drivers. If all is done right you are in the ball park, but you need to measure anyway.
The zobels aren't strictly needed IMHO. Two coils in parallel don't make sense, use only one appropriately sized. Use standard values, you'll have a hard time to make an 8.36uF cap.
Ralf
You need to simulate the baffle step effect and diffraction for all drivers, the cab effect for all drivers but the tweeter, and only then start designing the crossover. And I bet you didn't set the correct delay between the drivers. If all is done right you are in the ball park, but you need to measure anyway.
The zobels aren't strictly needed IMHO. Two coils in parallel don't make sense, use only one appropriately sized. Use standard values, you'll have a hard time to make an 8.36uF cap.
Ralf
Have you considered trying to eliminate baffle step acoustically? Small baffles and larger give different results.
I recently did my 3rd diy speaker using Troels Gravesens site, i thought i had read enough, but learnt more and more, i agree with the other poster, copy someone else's expertise shamelessly, there is so much to learn! others on here helped me lots as well. I reckon two weeks good reading first!
I built his Fusion Bad, didn't know when i started how much help the DSP on the bass would be, but it gave significant capability and improvement in my room when coached by folk on here!
Hi, thanks for the reply! I'd say the challange to actually design and fiddle with it until next centurary 🙂 Ive been looking extensivly at Troels diffrent builds past weeks as u can see the first example with tweeter ontop is sortof a copy of his baffledesign on CNO GRANDE although mine being 4way instead of a 3,5way with the sole reason that im not quite sold on the 4ohm nominal as in his design, im not sure why i dislike 4ohm but i just do.. However nothing is set in stone. I havent seen Elsinores thread however.
Thanks for the reply! I hear you, my plan is for this to be a quite long lasting project. Ill think about making it a 3way if the 6,5inch in this case is more or less null in effect.
However, when it comes to the baffle diffraction, woulnt it be just the best to install everything inside a cab and make my own measurments and use those? Given volume of the cabs are correct to the tuning of the woofers. Ive done some bafflediffraction simulations and it looked quite good, but i just dont trust it 100% especially when timealigning the elements physically with the chamferd baffle.
hi, Im quite aware of the bafflewidth's effect on the sound signature, I'm not sure that I can fit a Troels Poor Man's Strad in my livingroom 🙂
You will find my notes and pics on his builders pages. I think i might well have built something else if i knew then what i know now! - not that there is anything wrong with what I've done, but i don't use high levels and might have placed a different emphasis, there are so many nuances, my advice do lots of research and trust the experts! - i find it difficult to even ask the correct questions!
I share the view that 4-way is unnecessary with these drivers. The 22W can go up to 400-500Hz easily and from here you can go with the 12W or a 15W to the tweeter.
Btw, the very low passive crossover in the 4-way can cause additonal problems which is not showed in your simulations. (See below)
Why you don't like 4 Ohm speakers? What is your amp?
Passive woofer crossover peaking issues
Btw, the very low passive crossover in the 4-way can cause additonal problems which is not showed in your simulations. (See below)
Why you don't like 4 Ohm speakers? What is your amp?
Passive woofer crossover peaking issues
Yet another opinion that a 4 Way is not necessary or even desirable with an 8 or 10 inch bass driver. Most of the good 4 ways are designed more like a good 3 way, with the addition of a built-in subwoofer. If your low frequency driver was a 15 inch, then yes a 4 way might be an advantage over a 3 way.
Hi!, Alright.. Maybe the 4way was a bad idea afterall
. Im currently rocking a hegel h90 but im actually planning upgrade that to something like a luxman or something similar.. TBD.. About the 4ohm i just liked the idea of 8ohm, not much more to it except it easier to drive on more widely variety of amps. In the end maybe 4ohms is the way to go in my case with perhaps a 3,5 way 🙂Saw ur build, looks sick 😱
Well done 🙂
Ellepticor seems quite abit harder to build but they surely look good!
Did you consider this option as you have a reference : Keep one as a reference.Take one of the tower with the filter outside with longer wires going outside from the BR port and work on it on a wood piece to adapt to your room, tastes & learning project ? (Ask anyway a little mic and soundcard investment).
Maybe, but for first time DIY? What is so unusual in the link that the member made? I didn't see any.
I still think that a 4-way is unnecessary with these small drivers but if someone wants a 4-way then it's his choice.
Nope Go 4-Way
But be prepared for a lot of time and effort if passive. 3-Way with powered subwoofers will clean up the midbass and really allow the midrange to shine
The question really is how fat is your wallet? Clean deep bass is going to be expensive, more than I can afford at the moment but I see nothing wrong with using 10" woofers as a mid-bass unit and going to 15 or 18" for the sub, crossing over as low as practical
I cheat tho, I use affordable Behringer crossovers for bass/mid-bass/midrange cross and fiddle with passive for the top
Please excuse the crappy photo and even worse woodwork/painting
But be prepared for a lot of time and effort if passive. 3-Way with powered subwoofers will clean up the midbass and really allow the midrange to shine
The question really is how fat is your wallet? Clean deep bass is going to be expensive, more than I can afford at the moment but I see nothing wrong with using 10" woofers as a mid-bass unit and going to 15 or 18" for the sub, crossing over as low as practical
I cheat tho, I use affordable Behringer crossovers for bass/mid-bass/midrange cross and fiddle with passive for the top
Please excuse the crappy photo and even worse woodwork/painting
