Yes but given the room will take over control 'early' in the case of Drumberg's room it is given it'll be less a concern or other concerns will be first on the list from my pov.
About latency it'll depend...
From interface you'll have 'native latency' and yes it'll be in the 1ms range probably even lower as i do not know what it is all about with last gen soundcard/ system. The absolut minimum will be 1/fs ( if only dac) 2/fs ( if adc/dac).
From the treatment here again it'll vary: with low xover and high number of taps it will be longer for sure.
My take on this is as i previously pointed if you need 'real time' monitoring ( for musician) you could be in trouble past 3/5ms. You could meet a 'weirdos' which will be bothered with even lower but it never happened to me ( but i've a nice collection of 'weirdos' from the girl which hear bats, musician which doesn't hear some notes and my favourite one: the violon player which heard each time when we switched polarity on his track! Even in the mix...Spooky!).
For your mastering work it'll depend. I can work with latency up to 20ms without starting to want to break the gear with a hammer. I suppose i could even work offline as long as i can compare original and processed material at the exact same rms level and can switch without interuption from one to the other. This is the most important point: being able to compare source and processed at same exact level. Repeat after me...
I don't work the same as i'm tracking or mixing ( were it has to be FAST) than when i master: you need longer time to evaluate the sometines ( very) tiny difference you brings. Don't make choice on a rush imo.
Lake isn't a magic box it have latency... for Fir it rangebin step: 2,5ms, 5ms,10ms,25ms 50ms. For each step you get more powerfull treatment ( you can either have steeper slope at same xover freq or can go lower in the freq choice for xover or both...or have more ways ( up to 4 with Fir). One other point: Lake isn't an open platform it does just FIR xover. No chance to try DRC with mine ( even if i question what drc means or is for). For this you'll have to go Labgruppen amp as they bought the licence from Dolby and are now the 'owner' of the thing. Though Labgruppen are extremely goods amps imho!.
If i had to buy something atm I would go pro interface, pc and rephase. Accourate seems really great but nothing more than rephase from what i've seen : does it just generate the fir files or does it act as a dedicated dsp? In second case ok it may be worth it price)
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Hi,
I already heard some different speakers with PA drivers and horns. Most of the time I didn't like it when the 15" needs play very high. The best was when it was playing up to 300 or 350hz. Everything in the 800hz area didn't sound well to my ears. Especially I didn't liked the mids. Voices were not that natural to me. But I can't say which speaker was more neutral. I just say what I liked more.
The bass won't be easy to install. But I need to try it. I'm pretty convinced of multiple subs since I know that one single sub sounds very bad. I think it's the most convincing system. Because of the DSP I hope to make different presets. In general I prefer a clean bass, not to boomy. With the DSP I could make another boomy preset for fun. There is a lot to try with DSP.
But even if my room is bad with low frequencies I still need some good mains. So I would like to focus on the mains and plan them from 100hz-20khz (I know most drivers fall off at top end).
I have enough input to think about the mains. Now I just need to decide about the horns and drivers. In the mean time I thought about using my 30cm tractrix with a 2" Faital driver and a 12cm tractrix with 1" driver to get a better dispersion. But then in the next moment I think it's better to have only one horn as a point source. Furthermore the midbass doesn't need to play that high. Compromises I guess, krivium?
I know most 2" drivers are not that good at the top end and they don't go that low like the bms coax. I don't want to confuse you with the bms coax now. But I will think about every option I have before I choose. Do you know anybody who uses a nice working bms? I heard it and I didn't like the high frequencies. I read that this is not an easy driver. Maybe it is better with DSP. Please let me know if there is a thread about it here (someone with really great results). I will propably go with an 2" Faital because it's cheaper but it's good to know the best option. Maybe it's worth to pay a bit more.
So I will prepare two (or maybe three) different types of speakers and then I will decide between them. Of course you can discuss whatever you want. The informations are always great. But as diyiggy already said I'm about 70-80% sure what it will be
I already heard some different speakers with PA drivers and horns. Most of the time I didn't like it when the 15" needs play very high. The best was when it was playing up to 300 or 350hz. Everything in the 800hz area didn't sound well to my ears. Especially I didn't liked the mids. Voices were not that natural to me. But I can't say which speaker was more neutral. I just say what I liked more.
The bass won't be easy to install. But I need to try it. I'm pretty convinced of multiple subs since I know that one single sub sounds very bad. I think it's the most convincing system. Because of the DSP I hope to make different presets. In general I prefer a clean bass, not to boomy. With the DSP I could make another boomy preset for fun. There is a lot to try with DSP.
But even if my room is bad with low frequencies I still need some good mains. So I would like to focus on the mains and plan them from 100hz-20khz (I know most drivers fall off at top end).
I have enough input to think about the mains. Now I just need to decide about the horns and drivers. In the mean time I thought about using my 30cm tractrix with a 2" Faital driver and a 12cm tractrix with 1" driver to get a better dispersion. But then in the next moment I think it's better to have only one horn as a point source. Furthermore the midbass doesn't need to play that high. Compromises I guess, krivium?
I know most 2" drivers are not that good at the top end and they don't go that low like the bms coax. I don't want to confuse you with the bms coax now. But I will think about every option I have before I choose. Do you know anybody who uses a nice working bms? I heard it and I didn't like the high frequencies. I read that this is not an easy driver. Maybe it is better with DSP. Please let me know if there is a thread about it here (someone with really great results). I will propably go with an 2" Faital because it's cheaper but it's good to know the best option. Maybe it's worth to pay a bit more.
So I will prepare two (or maybe three) different types of speakers and then I will decide between them. Of course you can discuss whatever you want. The informations are always great. But as diyiggy already said I'm about 70-80% sure what it will be
I'm not an expert about Tad loudspeakers but heard some of them and variation around this theme and was bothered by the same area as you are (around 800hz) and was bothered by the one using the Tad 1604( i believe) 15" driver as they sounded a bit like a 'cardboard' sound to me. I thoughts it was because of the horn and 2" compression driver but variations i've heard using the horn/cd combo but different 15" and different filter topology didn't had this.
So i think this was more related to the filter used ( and why i told it could ruin a design). I repeat your concern are more related to the kind of boomer used than their size ( and filter used).
Why 100hz as lower limit?
I have enough input to think about the mains. Now I just need to decide about the horns and drivers. In the mean time I thought about using my 30cm tractrix with a 2" Faital driver and a 12cm tractrix with 1" driver to get a better dispersion. But then in the next moment I think it's better to have only one horn as a point source. Furthermore the midbass doesn't need to play that high. Compromises I guess, krivium?
I would focus on point source but it is my own obsession so... That said i fear that if you focus too much on 2" you may have surprise.
First yes it will be difficult to find one which play high enough: you can make them play high but expect breakup in the 10/15khz area and this is not something nice to my ears at all, that said you can find some nice 2" which won't require a berylium menbrane as the TAD... and which are abordable: DAS K8 sounded great to me in a Th 4001 clone ( by great i mean not better or worse that a TD4001, let's say usable once eqed). That said eq is a sideband aid regarding breakup, it won't change the fundamental signature it has. At least it isn't as problematic regarding directivity as it is with direct radiator as this is the horn which take care of it. But if you want to notch only real answer about it is to use an other horn and a 1" or smaller... as you already talked about. But welcome integration issues again... pick your poison!
But if you can live with that you may face something else with the 2": they have a nice low range ( what you loose one way you gain the other) and this may be an issue if you want to use only one 12": you may not have enough membrane area to match the 2" low end 'meat'. That's why you only see single 15" in combo with the 2" and biradial TH 4001.
If you look at TAD existing range they have that kind of model with 2x12" 'juxtaposed' behind the horn and i heard a custom system in a studio which was like that but i don't like the outcome regarding directivity they pointed toward head in a vise...
Maybe in MTM it could work but i never heard that ( i did with 2x15" though and for my own preference this is the 'best' combination i heard with this kind of drivers).
Yes it seems they are difficult to cross passively. That's why i introduced Jbl2450 which are to me the best compromise: being 1,5" they mitigate the breakup issue ( still present but with a bit of eq... like k8) and wistand to go low enough for your own set of constraints.
Someone with Bms coax compression driver? Ask MARK100. He is a nice friendly guy which will answer you and he is a great experimenter with a no nonsense approach and lot of experience about different design. Really ask him ( and he will probably talk to you about the 18 sound Horn too...).
So I will prepare two (or maybe three) different types of speakers and then I will decide between them. Of course you can discuss whatever you want. The informations are always great. But as diyiggy already said I'm about 70-80% sure what it will be
Nice... meanwhile i will probably still go freewheel until someone put a break on me!
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Hi,
I'll try to contact Mark100. Thanks for the hint.
I want the woofer in a closed box. I simulated the 15PR400 and it goes down to 80 or 100hz (don't remember for sure). At this point the multisub can take over. The 12" Faital has limit which is about hz lower if remember correctly.
I would like to know if you think that the Faital 2" drivers can play until 500hz without big problems? Found some information in an other forum. The HF204 has quite good hf and it was tested until 500hz.
I'll try to contact Mark100. Thanks for the hint.
I want the woofer in a closed box. I simulated the 15PR400 and it goes down to 80 or 100hz (don't remember for sure). At this point the multisub can take over. The 12" Faital has limit which is about hz lower if remember correctly.
You can read here and there in the forum that said some drivers were not worse than tad. Would be great to hear the K8 in comparison to an other driver. But's not possible. The K8 is between Faital and Bms in terms of price.
I would like to know if you think that the Faital 2" drivers can play until 500hz without big problems? Found some information in an other forum. The HF204 has quite good hf and it was tested until 500hz.
Used pair of axi2050 on the internet for 1000
Celestion Axi2050 | Full-Range | Coal Valley, Illinois 61240 | Audiogon
Celestion Axi2050 | Full-Range | Coal Valley, Illinois 61240 | Audiogon
Drumberg about drivers i don't know faital so i can't speak of them.
About price for the Compression Drivers don't buy new check second hand it'll be more cheaper. Being what they are except if used in some dirty sound system at worst you'll have to change diaphragm otherwise they don't suffer this much ( i won't give you same advice for woofers).
Ok about freq. This doesn't make sense to me to cut at 100hz if the driver is able to go a bit lower. The octave 80hz/160hz is where most 'punch' is located if possible do not xover in it.
I personnaly don't like 2" ( you can't break physic so you'll have issues with breakup this way... will it bother you or not i can't say for you) so my advice would be 1,5" either coax bms or 2450SL. But that is my preference not nescessarely yours.
About price for the Compression Drivers don't buy new check second hand it'll be more cheaper. Being what they are except if used in some dirty sound system at worst you'll have to change diaphragm otherwise they don't suffer this much ( i won't give you same advice for woofers).
Ok about freq. This doesn't make sense to me to cut at 100hz if the driver is able to go a bit lower. The octave 80hz/160hz is where most 'punch' is located if possible do not xover in it.
I personnaly don't like 2" ( you can't break physic so you'll have issues with breakup this way... will it bother you or not i can't say for you) so my advice would be 1,5" either coax bms or 2450SL. But that is my preference not nescessarely yours.
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I made the simulation again. F3 is 80hz and F6 is 60hz. Can I x-over at 80hz? Or which x-over would you use?
Attachments
What Qtc was your target? 0.707?. Which volume is your box?
If yes this is perfect as this mean you have a butterworth alignement at 80hz thanks to natural roll off of your woofer ( 12db/oct hp).
From there you just have to add a butt 12db hp at 80hz from your dsp and bingo: 24db/oct linkwitz riley.
Then you can compensate for phase rotation ( thanks to rephase for example) and you have a phase linear 24db/octave hp filter.
Anyway don't be to focused on qtc as if you have dsp you can adapt to ( almost) whatever value you need.
If yes this is perfect as this mean you have a butterworth alignement at 80hz thanks to natural roll off of your woofer ( 12db/oct hp).
From there you just have to add a butt 12db hp at 80hz from your dsp and bingo: 24db/oct linkwitz riley.
Then you can compensate for phase rotation ( thanks to rephase for example) and you have a phase linear 24db/octave hp filter.
Anyway don't be to focused on qtc as if you have dsp you can adapt to ( almost) whatever value you need.
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Yes it's Qzc 0.707 and 60l box.
Sounds great
Do you consider Faital HF204 as a 2" or 1,4"? It's the same like HF146 just with a 2" throat. I know maybe the space around the diaphram might be a little different. But it still an 1,4" inside.
Here you can see a comparison with CP750Ti and HF200 including measurements.
Sounds great
Do you consider Faital HF204 as a 2" or 1,4"? It's the same like HF146 just with a 2" throat. I know maybe the space around the diaphram might be a little different. But it still an 1,4" inside.
Here you can see a comparison with CP750Ti and HF200 including measurements.
I can't answer you about CD Drumberg. Really i do not have enough experience with this drivers to tell something usefull.
You'll have to find someone else which used them to give you trustable answer.
The reference i told you about i know and heard them for the rest i can't ( i m in freewheel but not to the point to talk about something i don t know).
And in a way i think Moray James's comment on the thread you linked had to be taken seriously: iow it'll depend of horn too.
This is a combo.
You'll have to find someone else which used them to give you trustable answer.
The reference i told you about i know and heard them for the rest i can't ( i m in freewheel but not to the point to talk about something i don t know).
And in a way i think Moray James's comment on the thread you linked had to be taken seriously: iow it'll depend of horn too.
This is a combo.
I intend to make a high efficiency two way and I bought Faital HF146R drivers as I have some XT1464 horns sitting around. I can't tell you what they sound like or measure like but I read as much as I could and looked at as many test as possible and these looked like the best compromise for a 1.4" throat and the price was low enough to pull the trigger without hearing.
There is a test of a HF146 on an XT1464 and SEOS here
FaitalPRO HF146 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
How low you can push any driver in a home environment depends a lot on how loud you want to push it and how much headroom you need to keep to not have dynamic issues.
There was also an interesting project called Raptor that was an XT1464 and 18sound 1" compression driver and 10" SEAS woofers in MTM, crossed somewhere around 700Hz with good polar response.
The choice of crossover point between horn and woofer is not arbitrary and if you want to avoid a directivity mismatch the woofer size needs to be matched to the horn around the crossover.
If you really want to go lower then the DCX464 is one of mark100's newest toys and seems to be preferred over the BMS coax. Look up the PM60 design by Peter Morris should be plenty of information there. The price of these drivers is much more significant though.
There is a test of a HF146 on an XT1464 and SEOS here
FaitalPRO HF146 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
How low you can push any driver in a home environment depends a lot on how loud you want to push it and how much headroom you need to keep to not have dynamic issues.
There was also an interesting project called Raptor that was an XT1464 and 18sound 1" compression driver and 10" SEAS woofers in MTM, crossed somewhere around 700Hz with good polar response.
The choice of crossover point between horn and woofer is not arbitrary and if you want to avoid a directivity mismatch the woofer size needs to be matched to the horn around the crossover.
If you really want to go lower then the DCX464 is one of mark100's newest toys and seems to be preferred over the BMS coax. Look up the PM60 design by Peter Morris should be plenty of information there. The price of these drivers is much more significant though.
No I haven't, too many ideas and too little time.
After I bought it I found Ath4. Worked out that I could make a better horn with wider directivity myself and decided to build a CNC to make it
I have got as far as making the table for the CNC so far....
The idea has morphed into a poor man's M2 with Faital Drivers, HF146R and 15PR400, ~120 deg waveguide to match the 15" at 800Hz
After I bought it I found Ath4. Worked out that I could make a better horn with wider directivity myself and decided to build a CNC to make it
I have got as far as making the table for the CNC so far....
The idea has morphed into a poor man's M2 with Faital Drivers, HF146R and 15PR400, ~120 deg waveguide to match the 15" at 800Hz
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Hi,
What do you think about this?
- Mid/High: 72 or 53cm horn with Faital HF204 or 206 (plays until 500-600Hz) (measurements)
- Midbass: 15PR400 or Volvotreter Conical Midbasshorn with B&C 12PE32 (horn works from 77hz till about 500hz)
- Subs: 4x Subs probably 12" or 15"
I know the horn is not constant directivity but I'm fine with that. The woofer is more interesting. Do you think the conical midbass horn will work together with the rest in my room? I measured a listening distance of 3-3,5m from the drivers (not from the horns).
Nearly the same here
What do you think about this?
- Mid/High: 72 or 53cm horn with Faital HF204 or 206 (plays until 500-600Hz) (measurements)
- Midbass: 15PR400 or Volvotreter Conical Midbasshorn with B&C 12PE32 (horn works from 77hz till about 500hz)
- Subs: 4x Subs probably 12" or 15"
I know the horn is not constant directivity but I'm fine with that. The woofer is more interesting. Do you think the conical midbass horn will work together with the rest in my room? I measured a listening distance of 3-3,5m from the drivers (not from the horns).
Hi,
Nearly the same here
What do you think about this?
- Mid/High: 72 or 53cm horn with Faital HF204 or 206 (plays until 500-600Hz) (measurements)
- Midbass: 15PR400 or Volvotreter Conical Midbasshorn with B&C 12PE32 (horn works from 77hz till about 500hz)
- Subs: 4x Subs probably 12" or 15"
I know the horn is not constant directivity but I'm fine with that. The woofer is more interesting. Do you think the conical midbass horn will work together with the rest in my room? I measured a listening distance of 3-3,5m from the drivers (not from the horns).
Hi,
I have 4 x TH1819 up to 110 Hz, Mid conical comp horn from 110 Hz to 1350Hz Faital 10PR300 and Hi Faital LTH102 and HF10AK from 1350 Hz up to 20kHz
