3-Way active Horn Speaker (Monitor) for small rooms

[diyiggy]

Yes lower distorsion, but here the 15" will be too much in the room, this will far to be neutral and natural but for an an open bass sub.

 

[hweb]

Hweb,
You may have experienced an issue regarding the minimal distance to use the speakers. Ime this is related to centre to centre distance of drivers ( or drivers and horn) as you need a minimum distance for the 2 wavefronts to merge or as exposed by Camplo an issue about Ka of horn.

What you didn't like about coax? The behavior of treble? Which kind of drivers have you used?

I'm using a 12" B&C coax driver. Unfortunately I don't recall the model number. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad at all (particularly after some DSP massaging). I just prefer:
1) Having a larger midbass to bring the midrange directivity down lower in frequency.
2) Having wider directivity in horizontal than vertical (I want about 90 x 60). Can't do that with a coax.
3) I'm concerned (maybe needlessly) about the HF waveguide (the cone of the coax driver) moving around. I can't imagine that's a good thing. I've removed all of the real bass duties from the coax (cross over to another 12" driver at 300Hz), but still...

All first world problems ;-)

 

[Drumberg]

Ka is directivity factor, the greater the more directive it is ( iirc a ka of one is = to 90* conical, higher means 60*, 45*,20*,... but check as i'm not totaly sure... ).

15" drivers have other advantage: as they have larger membrane area they have to move less for a given spl. And movement is the ennemy as the more you move the more distortion you have... Imo there is other advantage with bigger driver as they sound more natural to me.

Thanks for the explaination of Ka. Regarding the movement of 15" drivers I want to remind you of the multisub. The woofer will play from 80 or 100hz so big movements won't be necessary. The excursion will be much lower than playing sub bass frequencies. Also the 15" starts beaming earlier. I guess the higher frequencies will be better on the 12". But of course Ka of the 12" should be near/identical of the Ka from the horn at x-over. So when I use a 12" together with the bigger Calpamos horn it's possible that Ka decides the x-over frequency and not the capability of the horn.

I'm sure Pi Speakers work well. But tbh they don't turn me on. That's a lot of wooden horn stuff and pretty sure they're out of my budget. If I spend a lot of money on horns I'm pretty sure they will be round (I'm biased here )

If you can, the speaker will sound better if the front wall is the 3 m one with minimum 0.5 m from the side walls (try assymetric distance with the opposit side wall) . And 0.8 to 1 m from the front wall (from the front loudspeaker plate to the wall behind).

In this case the speaker will stand next to each other with max. 1m inbetween. And the listening distance will be smaller. But these are things I can test when the speakers are ready...

I'm definetly going with horn speakers only the size of the horn and woofer can be discussed. I won't go with 6,5" woofers or line arrays

 

[zmyrna]

Big woofer will require big horn. Big horn will be problematic in the HF. You will end up with a large 3 way speaker. In a small room that will be disaster for driver integration due to large distance between drivers. If you made up your mind for diy I suggest a two way with Beyma TPL 150 or 200H and an efficient 8" midbass. And add subs. If that does not have enough spl, go and have your ears checked.

 

[krivium]

Yes lower distorsion, but here the 15" will be too much in the room, this will far to be neutral and natural but for an an open bass sub.

Thanks for the explaination of Ka. Regarding the movement of 15" drivers I want to remind you of the multisub. The woofer will play from 80 or 100hz so big movements won't be necessary. The excursion will be much lower than playing sub bass frequencies. Also the 15" starts beaming earlier.

Did i ever spoke about SUB? No, i was talking about a 15" for bass/mid duties.
Diyiggy, could you point to scientific evidence about your point of view please? To be honest with you i was more or less into the same mood as you and tryied to defend my pov with E.Geddes previously.
As expected i've been sent back to do my homework... and i tried to find evidence of this in the litterature i have access to and... no there is no reason i've found it can't work in small room from a theorical point of view. As i previously said they may be difficult to integrate ( from my experience) but i always found a way to have something usable so... E.Geddes was right, i was wrong. If you can help my ego ( to be able to make someone which worked his whole life studying something is good for the egotrip!) proove i'm right i take it!


Drumberg could you be more accurate about your plan wrt multisub please: follow E.Geddes approach or something else?
Reverting to 15" for mid, yes they beam but have you studied the 'econowave' kind of design? I won't say this is the definitive answer regarding sound quality but this is an approach to take into account.
If you stick with 12" and 90* horizontal it'll be difficult to go lower than 1,2k for horn matching.

About Pi speakers i get your point. At first they didn't fit my bill too but after thinkin about the whole schem of things ( loudspeakers and room as a system) they solve a lot of issues if you want constant directivity and make acoustic treatments easier than typical horn system.

(try assymetric distance with the opposit side wall) . And 0.8 to 1 m from the front wall (from the front loudspeaker plate to the wall behind)

This is a recipe for disaster. Don't forget this won't be for recreational use but to produce music. Assymetrical layout may seems like a good idea but in a small room it'll be very difficult to implement something with the same behavior about ER in the horizontal plan so it'll be misleading to mix on this. This is one of the reason professional control room does have an axial symmetry ( and yes i've seen and worked in a bunch of them, some being top notch ( T.Hidley's design)). In a big room it could work using redirecting through the use of side wall angling but in this case that won't happen given the room dimension.
Last thing, 0.8 to 1m spacing to front wall is nice if you don't want 80hz to be reproduced.
Don't take me wrong i have nothing against you or your idea but there is physic at work!

In fact in small room the better solution is to have the monitors inwall. Doubt about it? Visit John Sayers's forum for example ( one of the few pro acoustician giving advice to amateurs)...

100% agree!

Such a relief! I'm not the only one here... i count three person with same feeling here! (Hi Camplo! Lol)

Don't get me wrong, it's not bad at all (particularly after some DSP massaging). I just prefer:
1) Having a larger midbass to bring the midrange directivity down lower in frequency.
2) Having wider directivity in horizontal than vertical (I want about 90 x 60). Can't do that with a coax.
3) I'm concerned (maybe needlessly) about the HF waveguide (the cone of the coax driver) moving around. I can't imagine that's a good thing. I've removed all of the real bass duties from the coax (cross over to another 12" driver at 300Hz), but still...

All first world problems ;-)

I don't take you wrong!
1) just use a 15"!
2) it is possible: Volt offer some coax with 90x60. More inline with Urei kind of coax than Tannoy ( with an Horn dedicated to high and without using the membrane as horn extension).
3) you have the answer about it! What Tannoy implemented in Dreadnough!

Yes those are first world problem for coax Tannoy style owners! And much less anxiety inducing than covid! Thank you for that.

Big woofer will require big horn. Big horn will be problematic in the HF. You will end up with a large 3 way speaker. In a small room that will be disaster for driver integration due to large distance between drivers.

Which lead to the obvious answer: MEH Unity/Synergy style.
This may be intimidating and will require a lot of woodwork ( and not easy to do...at least to me) but it is the solution most of people with same requirements as Drumberg end up with as possible answer! ( take a look at Camplo thread for example...).

Anyway Drumberg i can only recommend one last but very important thing ime: design the room and loudspeaker as a whole or you'll be never satisfied! My 2cents...( more 20€ than 2cents ).

 

[camplo]

Krivium said it all

 

[Drumberg]

Did i ever spoke about SUB? No, i was talking about a 15" for bass/mid duties.

Some people use 15" without a sub. So I thought that the excursion will be very low in my case anyway and that it wouldn't affect the mid qualities.

If you stick with 12" and 90* horizontal it'll be difficult to go lower than 1,2k for horn matching.

I think this is an important point. Are there any information about the directivity on different frequencies of 12" and 15" woofer? Otherwise I need to compare existing speakers but I can't be sure that they have optimal x-over and Ka.

Big woofer will require big horn. Big horn will be problematic in the HF. You will end up with a large 3 way speaker. In a small room that will be disaster for driver integration due to large distance between drivers.

This means I can't use a 12" with the bigger PH-2380 horn with x-over at 650hz. If I want to use 12" I need a smaller horn like Mezzo Calpamos with higher x-over. So I need to decide whether I want lower hornloading with mediocre HF or less horn with better HF.

Drumberg could you be more accurate about your plan wrt multisub please: follow E.Geddes approach or something else?

I have no specific plan for multisub so far but Geddes is an option. A SBA or DBA might be too much for me. But using 3 or 4 subs is okay.

If you made up your mind for diy I suggest a two way with Beyma TPL 150 or 200H and an efficient 8" midbass. And add subs. If that does not have enough spl, go and have your ears checked.

I heard the TPL150 with 8" midrange and 15" woofer. Quite nice speaker tbh. But 8" midbass is definitely not enough. It's not about spl...

Anyway Drumberg i can only recommend one last but very important thing ime: design the room and loudspeaker as a whole or you'll be never satisfied!

This is what I try to do My room is 3m*5m. All I need is speakers, subs, some acoustic treatment. Other than that there is only some gear and of course some furniture. But I'm flexible with the furniture. Most important to me is the sound. But I'm biased. I'd like to cover most of the frequency range with horn. That's why I like the Calpamos so much. X-over is at 650hz (even if the cutoff of the horn is at 400hz, so fully working from 800hz).

I need some time to read about the systems you mentioned in detail. Thanks to all of you!

 

[camplo]

even if the cutoff of the horn is at 400hz

lol looking at the impedance graph I'd say the real cut off is about 900hz.

 

[diyiggy]

I'm sure Pi Speakers work well. But tbh they don't turn me on. That's a lot of wooden horn stuff and pretty sure they're out of my budget. If I spend a lot of money on horns I'm pretty sure they will be round (I'm biased here )

In this case the speaker will stand next to each other with max. 1m inbetween. And the listening distance will be smaller. But these are things I can test when the speakers are ready...

I'm definetly going with horn speakers only the size of the horn and woofer can be discussed. I won't go with 6,5" woofers or line arrays

I had more in mind something with 1.5 m spacing with speakers width < 25 cm.

Allow you for a good sweet spot you will find by test & error between 1.7 m to 1.2 meter from the front of the speakers.
Pi speakers are ok, In your room ( 5x3 m = ?? square meter ??... sorry my science is bad ) I will not go over the 8" bass model.
The space allowed behind the sweet spot around 3 m, is very helpfull. Don't be focussed too much about the distorsion in the explanation given with Sd of the cone, there are far more important items to choose first. The controlled directivity is a good first start, then think to do math and measure about resonance and modes in your room and the way you load it. Again your room is not 20m²a nd more .

The only real advantage of a horn & high spl driver in your particular case is about controlled and/or constant directivity purpose or if you have a very low wattage tube amp as a 211, 300B, 2A3, etc. While as I told it, if you go with active amp, it's another story of course . Think also there are horns for dome and cone drivers too that help more than a big 12" cone in the mids and upper bass. Little synergy kit with a Peerless compression designed by the guy who made Xsim comes in mind here at Diyaudio or the foamed horns by Xrz971 as well for illustration.
Don't mix up boomy and dynamic / spl level, focus more on Le of the mid driver and bass you will choose or go in the bass for open bass sub as I pointed out in the previous post : it will save you a lot of time if you stay 3 way.

good luck

 

[krivium]

Some people use 15" without a sub. So I thought that the excursion will be very low in my case anyway and that it wouldn't affect the mid qualities.

Yes from 8" and up this will give great results no question about that. But if you want even better 15" is the obvious choice that's why i talk about it. ( We are all biased one way or another. And this place being a forum everybody as a pov. Don't take things explained as granted and question every pov, mine first! Only this can make you learn and see what is ok to you. This is what matter: your own preference. That said we can't break law of physics so some things are 'rules'. The point being to know what they are. ).

I think this is an important point. Are there any information about the directivity on different frequencies of 12" and 15" woofer? Otherwise I need to compare existing speakers but I can't be sure that they have optimal x-over and Ka.

I will post you simulation of directivity behavior of different size of driver as polar map latter this day ( those are located on an other computer). But yes this is very important key to success.

This means I can't use a 12" with the bigger PH-2380 horn with x-over at 650hz. If I want to use 12" I need a smaller horn like Mezzo Calpamos with higher x-over. So I need to decide whether I want lower hornloading with mediocre HF or less horn with better HF.

This IS what designing loudspeaker is all about: compromise and trade off. The thing is to find the set that suit your needs and preference knowing that once a choice is made it ALWAYS imply some limitations on other things... what make it funny, frustrating and fascinating!

I have no specific plan for multisub so far but Geddes is an option. A SBA or DBA might be too much for me. But using 3 or 4 subs is okay.

Well ok. To summarise Geddes approach the point is to use a pair of wideband mains ( which will have a large freq response 20hz to 20khz) and to use multiple subs located at different spot in room to 'linearize' the behavior of room below schroeder frequency of your room. They are not x'ed over like the typical sub approach and doesn't needto be of same familly neither, the goal being to have a 'statistically' better spread of low end within the room trying to overcome modal behavior and thus making the low end reproduced content more or less equal everywhere in the room. Thus you don't need the use of bass trap. This was one of his target developping this. This leave only ER treatment to be done and maybe a bit of diffusion ( but i fear the dimension of your room won't allow that.
Go to his site ( there is a link into Earl's signature) and download his paper about it.
This is not the only approach possible about multisub though: Jbl have white paper about it too but it is more aimed at cinema ( big room) and different strategy than Earl's one ( eg: locating sub to drive the mode with revert phase).

This is what I try to do My room is 3m*5m. All I need is speakers, subs, some acoustic treatment. Other than that there is only some gear and of course some furniture. But I'm flexible with the furniture. Most important to me is the sound. But I'm biased. I'd like to cover most of the frequency range with horn. That's why I like the Calpamos so much. X-over is at 650hz (even if the cutoff of the horn is at 400hz, so fully working from 800hz).

Ok fine if you have an 'wholistic' approach! This is the first step to success as pointed by Camplo.
You want 640hz and up covered by horn? Then you must read about Kinoshita/Reyaudio/ Tad approach to this! There is an active thread about Tad 2404 atm here. Th-4XXX horn are an other possible answer but... it comes with it's own set of drawback first being it won't be cheap ( components aren't). This is tried and tested FOR YEARS in pro control rooms all around the world. Marco Gea is one of the specialist about it here. Docali own a pair too and believe me the guy know what he is talking about ( ask Camplo!).
Take a look at Camplo's thread: it'll be a long read but very, very informative ( with all the usual suspects ( 'big guns' members in there, i learned a lot): 'is it possible to cover...bla bla bla' is the thread name.

This is true with Wesayso's thread too ( even if you won't use a line array): the approach and overall way of thinking is impressive! Science driven by an hardcore open minded enginneer. A lot to learn in there too!

I need some time to read about the systems you mentioned in detail.

Meh: Multi Entry Horn. T.Danley's baby. The new school approach ( as E.Geddes philosophy about waveguide is newschool but different in outcome) regarding horn. Search For DSL SH range.

What do you call SBA and DBA?

This will be a long run but i'm sure it'll be rewarding to you!

 

[diyiggy]

yep, can't say it better here than Krivium.


My personal biass, YMMV as usual: Just the Tad are a no-go here because the little room and for the same reason no 15" (but open cabinet for the bass for instance) and no 12" without lense a la Geedle in the mid.


I really don't think my receipe about speaker spacing and foot print will come into a disaster, I have approximatly an idea about what reproducing is... sort of.



IMHO the op should say what he has in mind wanting big Sd for better advices.

 

[arcgotic]

Hi Drumberg!
One idea from me, it's the setup I have now and it sounds great.
CD Sica cd 60.38/n92 - very nice cheap driver, XO 900hz LR8
horn B52
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/media/catalog/product/datasheet/sica/Z009484.pdf
B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On

Sealed 12PE32 for 150-900hz.

FIR linear phase filters, all is good.

 

[krivium]

IMHO the op should say what he has in mind wanting big Sd for better advices.

100% agree. If you could tell us what you are planning for Xover too Drumberg it would be great.

About bias, i'm more into physical layout and driver integration from an acoustical pov than into their mechanics. Ime this is more what matter to me than a brand's reference or a kind of technology.

For xover i'm into dsp and multiamp too. From a theorical point i'm into point source big time, being coax or tricks to achieve this (mtm, meh, even fullrangers!)... And acoustics!

Diyiggy, could you elaborate about what matter to you about sound quality ( what you half said into your last post)? This is always informative, at least to me!

For TAD in small rooms well here again i've seen and heard them in this case and wasn't bothered that much ( i have other grief about the principle behind them though, it is embeded into Camplo's thread if it interest someone), but Docali had same pov than yours so i may be the exception.

 

[diyiggy]

I'm exactly into physical layout and driver integration since the beginning as well. Brands ? Nore I am. technology matter, I have no particular liking but choose in relation to the situation. This is good and should be highlighted indeed the op gave the size room, I started from here...and of course what I believe to understand + personal biass.


Ah, DSP and multiamp : it changes it all indeed. I missed the point the op was into DSP & multiamp as well : gives indeed lot of more choices.


I've always being bothered with TAD and any classic horn system (120x90°) in small space + the bass and mid system which are often Onkens or better mid-horn loaded always asked a greater sweet spot spacing with the speakers... much more, at least to my ears. I'm meaning about Tad in particular of course. Give me the tweeter planar modified with a 211 amp, I may be more than happy, or their cd in big enough room... happy again . An other illustration : I like for some reasons the VooT, but always find it gave something ridiculous when you see it in some rooms with sides walls 3 or 4 m distance, whatever multicells horn you putt above... personal tastes perhaps. For me it's a no-go to think low power amp dictating huge system in small spaces as you could saw it in the the paper reviews focusing on japanese rooms... it's more about hype and having kilos of gears to be above the neighboors in a social competition (ah Asia... but things have changed ! At least about speaker size there... lessons learned.

Again we are speaking about 15m2. I suspect the op Sd conclusion comes about systems he heard in different context and draw from it a general receip, but I may be wrong.

Anyhow, nothing should stop him to experiment, especially if he has dsp & multiamp which gives him more freedom to EQ pro bass driver, have steeper slope due to high Fs, dedicated amp/driver to cunter high Le dor the low end and mids and tons of resistors in the upper horn for spl matching...

 

[krivium]

I'm exactly into physical layout and driver integration since the beginning as well. Brands ? Nore I am. technology matter, I have no particular liking but choose in relation to the situation. This is good and should be highlighted indeed the op gave the size room, I started from here...and of course what I believe to understand + personal biass.

Ah, DSP and multiamp : it changes it all indeed. I missed the point the op was into DSP & multiamp as well : gives indeed lot of more choices.

There we have a confusion: i talked about my own biasing not Drumberg's one! Lol.

I am into dsp and multiamp and more about layout into speaker. I suppose Drumberg is relatively new to design so not even biased for now ( well he seems to be into horn, which is already a big bias! ).

Yes technology matter that is sure but IN MY CASE i whitnessed that what matter is more the layout/philosophy behind loudspeaker that the technology ( and what i called 'mechanics' used).
I hope it is clearer now ( you know i'm... French! It's already some kind of a miracle i'm able to -badly -express myself in english! ).

I've always being bothered with TAD and any classic horn system (120x90°) in small space + the bass and mid system which are often Onkens or better mid-horn loaded always asked a greater sweet spot spacing with the speakers... much more, at least to my ears. I'm meaning about Tad in particular of course.

TAD TH-4003 are 90x60. But yeah i get your point. It seems i'm less bothered than others about that.

Give me the tweeter planar modified with a 211 amp, I may be more than happy, or their cd in big enough room... happy again . An other illustration : I like for some reasons the VooT, but always find it gave something ridiculous when you see it in some rooms with sides walls 3 or 4 m distance, whatever multicells horn you putt above... personal tastes perhaps.

Yes a matter of taste i agree. I've heard an Vot ( altec A7) with Th 4003 and was blown away by results. But it was a relatively large room with a lot of height ( maybe 4m).

For me it's a no-go to think low power amp dictating huge system in small spaces as you could saw it in the the paper reviews focusing on japanese rooms... it's more about hype and having kilos of gears to be above the neighboors in a social competition (ah Asia... but things have changed ! At least about speaker size there... lessons learned.

Well, i think in the end it depend from realisation. Some are successful but i agree with you some japanese example are extreme and CAN'T work! There is some limit but in my experience they are more related to the driver integration ( listening to close) rather than the size of drivers.
Japanese audiophiles are no differents than others. Showing off is as often experienced in the west as in the far east. Size ( of hifi )does matter ( when you have to compensate for something else (right or wrong)). Same thing exist with cars,....

Again we are speaking about 15m2. I suspect the op Sd conclusion comes about systems he heard in different context and draw from it a general receip, but I may be wrong.

Do you listen to electronic music DiyIggy? I'm a Drum and Bass Dj ( as well as other things) and there is something about electronic music played on horn system. You can't have the same thing with direct radiators only and i think this is what Drumberg is looking for ( but i may be wrong here). And no this is not related to Spl (only!). Difficult to explain it clearly. See Camplo's thread and Ro808 obsession for example.

About spl and Hi Efficiency there is something about listening at low level HE system: they are more revealing and sound 'better' than lower efficiency one. Well i think ( but i'm not the only one to have whitnessed this and this is one of the quality researched by nuts like me! ).

Anyhow, nothing should stop him to experiment, especially if he has dsp & multiamp which gives him more freedom to EQ pro bass driver, have steeper slope due to high Fs, dedicated amp/driver to cunter high Le dor the low end and mids and tons of resistors in the upper horn for spl matching...

Yes we are in agreements!

 

[Drumberg]

What would be the reason they use the PH2380 from 400Hz or 650Hz with a 15" if the horn works from 800 or 900Hz best?

Tbh I didn't know that I need mains to go low for the Geddes multisub With SBA and DBA I mean single bass array and double bass array.

I know camplos thread but I only read random pages in the hope of finding something specific for my case

Never had a look at TAD stuff because it's out of my price range for sure. I mentioned some drivers for example from Calpamos and this is an other price area.

You guys keep asking me what I have in my mind and what my plans are. If I knew myself... Maybe it helps you when I telll you more. My music is very (sub-) Bass heavy. I tried a single subwoofer with some different monitors (non diy) and I was never happy. The single sub was very bad. Some monitors were okay but you still don't get that live feeling. I heard some horn speakers in different rooms and there are a few I liked. I think the combination of the driver and horn is really important, not especially the type of horn. I'm looking for a combination which works in my room. One thing is for sure. I want a better subwoofer solution using multiple subs! And I want the dynamics of a horn speaker. If I could I would cover the whole spectrum with horns. But that's not easy (especially in my room). I like the Calpamos because it uses the copy of the JBL horn. Strauss MF-2.1 is using it as well. This horn + 15" is kind of tested and working in my eyes. These are expensive monitors used in mastering studios.

Anyway... what I want now:
-multiple subs closed box
-closed box for the midbass whether it's 12" or 15"
-using the main speaker from 80 or 100hz (so Geddes won't work I guess, but we can discuss on this point)
-a nice HF driver / horn combination

I want to use "regular" cd horns like I mentioned before. Spending a lot of money for a wooden horn is not really an option. I guess the cd/horn combination decides about the woofer. So I need to choose an horn which fits my room.

If you say the PH2380 will work in my room I will build it with the 15" in a closed box. If the PH2380 is too big I will look for an other horn. In this case the it would be great if you can post simulation of directivity behavior of different size of driver @krivium. EDIT: The Faital HF201 has a 74mm voice coil. Maybe the hf response isn't that bad? Other 2" drivers have bigger coils in general.

FYI: Maybe I could switch rooms to 5m*4m=20m² if this helps a lot. But it would be some work and I need to check if I get the permission
And I also bought 30cm tractrix horns with 1" throat. Maybe I could change them to 1,4" or 2". This does not need to be my future speaker but camplo said that I need to try different horns and I got the opportunity It has an cut-off of 400hz. It should work from 800hz. But with a single driver the sweet spot will be very small. Do you see any chance of adding a 12cm tractrix hf horn (or a little fostex super tweeter)? In this case this could be my future speaker.

Hope I answered all open questions.

 

[Drumberg]

Do you listen to electronic music DiyIggy? I'm a Drum and Bass Dj ( as well as other things) and there is something about electronic music played on horn system. You can't have the same thing with direct radiators only and i think this is what Drumberg is looking for ( but i may be wrong here). And no this is not related to Spl (only!). Difficult to explain it clearly. See Camplo's thread and Ro808 obsession for example.

About spl and Hi Efficiency there is something about listening at low level HE system: they are more revealing and sound 'better' than lower efficiency one. Well i think ( but i'm not the only one to have whitnessed this and this is one of the quality researched by nuts like me! ).

Yes, you are right

I think there are more details with horn speakers even at low volume.

 

[diyiggy]

Ok, so what you like guys is heavily pressurized room experience. So big Sd helps. But notice PA systems made at home are not going lower a littlier non PA driver which Fs is often in best case 5 to 10 lower for the last . Anyhow, for the bass, the room size will be rulling. It's good you like electronic music (low electronic organ notes and electronic bass-drum) here as transcient is not what is the most looked for. Kick drums are not more often than say rock music or jazz starting in the second octave.


What you call details imho is what you experienced with the harmonics of the compression driver/horn combo if non folded or long horn in the upper bass-low mid were involved in your previous listenings. Because with low spl, on a flat front panel a PA driver has not more details that a littlier driver. Also, notice that at low average spl (70 hz average ?) your ears has a better luck with dynamic behavior if in the recording and also are more focused on details (M&F curve changes with the average spl level). Often the spl curve is a little peaky in the mids giving a more details feeling imho.



Well we are all locked-down for our and others health for the moment, but when it comes about details, you should go in a loudspeaker shop and ask to listen to an ESL... good learning for own experience toolbox we need in our hobby.


My system is 35 hz F3 sealed. But I can live with a 4 strings bass proof system : 40 hz F3 is enough for my tastes, 50 hz F3 as well, 40 hz F6 as well.


As the size room will rules sooner that you believe ( circa 200 hz with 15 to 20 square-meters ?), the best solution for an acurate 15 to 20 hz is this :


You really need a DSP imo and active : MiniDSP comes in mind : cheap and safe enough for electro music. It will provide greater sucess chance, go with cheap multi amp with class D and allow you to focus the budget on the speakers.
well my 2 cents.

 

[krivium]

Ok, kids are in bed so i've got a bit more spare time.

Polar map here we go!

I don't know if you are familiar with this so don't take offense if you already know how to read this! If not what follow will be of great
help!

In the far left you've got a colour scale which represent level.
We are interested in the orange colour as this corespond to -6db area and this is by convention the point given as reference for directivity.
(eg:90° covering means that we have a device which will be -6db down at +/- 45° angle each side of listening axis (0°)).

about the graph: in the midlle of the vertical axys you've got 0°= listening axis.
In the horizontal axys you've got frequency.

The colour corespond to level (= the scale at the far left).

So let's say you want to know at which frequency an 8" driver have an angular coverage of 90°: you draw an horizontal line at 45° (either side for a direct radiating driver this doesn't matter in that case) and you search the place where it turns orange.
Once done you draw a vertical line (you can use paint if under Windows) and read the frequency at which it happen.

So from the '8" example file' you can see it happen around 1,8/1,9khz.

Keep in mind these are approximation (it is dependent from SD) but it is close enough to have an idea of where it will happen.

You've got 6,5", 8", 10", 12", 15" to check their behavior.

Now the fun part will be to find an horn which have the same behavior at the same frequency that the driver sizeyou want to use.
ALMOST simple as that ( the important word is ALMOST because there is other things to check... ).

 

[krivium]

Ok, so what you like guys is heavily pressurized room experience. So big Sd helps. But notice PA systems made at home are not going lower a littlier non PA driver which Fs is often in best case 5 to 10 lower for the last . Anyhow, for the bass, the room size will be rulling. It's good you like electronic music (low electronic organ notes and electronic bass-drum) here as transcient is not what is the most looked for. Kick drums are not more often than say rock music or jazz starting in the second octave.

Hmmm. Not sure you figure there is some kind of music which rely heavily on HEAVY BASS contents. No kick drums but sustained droning electronic generated bass.
In D&B i play there is a lot... I will give you some lower tempo example as i'm not sure you'll withstand what i usually play (180bpm manic drums breaks over dark mood pads... ). This i listen to chill out at home.Don't play this to loud it may be difficult for your woofers. I'm not Kidding.

YouTube

YouTube

Those are kind of music which needs to be played LOUD. Live acts of Scorn (the first example) are around 95dbspl rms last time i've seen him: my trousers followed rythm quite clearly... like a flag into high wind! LOL! I know totaly crazy stuff, but you know.... Youngsters listen to evenmore extreme genres. Bassnectar is proud to have some 5hz full blast on some tracks! I'm feelin old sometimes!

What you call details imho is what you experienced with the harmonics of the compression driver/horn combo if non folded or long horn in the upper bass-low mid were involved in your previous listenings.

Maybe but i don't think so. To me this is more related to the transcient and the fact that high efficiency drivers and horns are much truer regarding that ('faster' but i don't like this kind of description).

Well we are all locked-down for our and others health for the moment, but when it comes about details, you should go in a loudspeaker shop and ask to listen to an ESL... good learning for own experience toolbox we need in our hobby.

I know esl but really they are not up to the task in this case. First they don't go low enough and with enough pressure. Second the sweetspot is not wide enough for my taste (i hate head in wise).
I have used that kind of speaker in studio and they are great for acoustic instruments (guitar and strings are lovely on this) but for electronic music they are lacking to me.

My system is 35 hz F3 sealed. But I can live with a 4 strings bass proof system : 40 hz F3 is enough for my tastes, 50 hz F3 as well, 40 hz F6 as well.

I constantly need 30hz f3 min. On acoustic no problem with the last octave being missing but with the kind of music i listen to this is missing.

As the size room will rules sooner that you believe ( circa 200 hz with 15 to 20 square-meters ?)

Probably higher than 200hz. I would say more 250/300hz but this may turn out to be an advantage if used and planed correctly.

You really need a DSP imo and active : MiniDSP comes in mind : cheap and safe enough for electro music. It will provide greater sucess chance, go with cheap multi amp with class D and allow you to focus the budget on the speakers.

I agree but not on the minidsp: converters are not good enough and you can do MUCH better through a PC, Rephase, a multichannel convolver plugin and a prosoundcard. It will depend if he want to play with FIR filter and most importantly if he want to make realtime monitoring (some musicians can't play with more than 3/5ms latency).
My own dsp is Dolby Lake ( but i doubt Drumberg will accept this solution as it is not cheap at all).