uTrynergy parts
Hi X. I've read this whole thread over and over and have decided to try a uTrynergy. Haven't been able to locate what you used for woofers other than they were 5.25" buyouts which are apparently history. PE has a GRS that is $5 in quantity. Do u think that would work? Also, since the high driver is accessible, can I start with something cheap like this Visaton? I can always upgrade to the SB, which comes from a different vendor anyway.
Hi X. I've read this whole thread over and over and have decided to try a uTrynergy. Haven't been able to locate what you used for woofers other than they were 5.25" buyouts which are apparently history. PE has a GRS that is $5 in quantity. Do u think that would work? Also, since the high driver is accessible, can I start with something cheap like this Visaton? I can always upgrade to the SB, which comes from a different vendor anyway.
XRK971
Have a happy newyear.
I have play some with the circlotron, and the auobias who is go to be build in, a circlotron can do this more easely because the canceling effect.
Now test without, I had change things because of onstability, now the parts from china do have a long time with chipping I have to stop some projects, and as such did start the circlotron again.
HD is now extremely low, in sim.
regards
Have a happy newyear.
I have play some with the circlotron, and the auobias who is go to be build in, a circlotron can do this more easely because the canceling effect.
Now test without, I had change things because of onstability, now the parts from china do have a long time with chipping I have to stop some projects, and as such did start the circlotron again.
HD is now extremely low, in sim.
regards
Attachments
Try this one:
Peerless TC7FD00-08 2-1/2" Full-Range Line Array Driver 8 Ohm
The one you linked is not as smooth. These are quite low cost too. Any 5in woofer decent xmax (> 2mm) should be ok - yes, go cheap as the sound quality below 600Hz on most woofers when used in a bandpass vent injection like a point source Trynergy is not really all that different.
For the woofer, I like poly cones more than paper and this is what I used on the Trynergy, a bit bigger but you can squeeze it in by offsetting them to the side and have ports on the horn wall (they will extend over the side of the horn side wall but supported on an extended top/bottom wall.
6-1/2" Poly Cone Midbass Woofer 4 Ohm
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Hi Kees,
Cool to see you are still working on the AllFET Circlotron after all these years! Congrats on the extraordinarily low simulated THD of your design. My problem with a circlotron is that it cancels even order harmonic distortion and this can sound too sharp for my ears. I have mostly concentrated on SE Class A with active CCS for quasi push-pull but pure SE Class A operation. This ensures second order harmonic distortion dominant and monotonically decreasing higher orders of harmonic distortion - which sounds more pleasant to my ears.
Cheers,
X
Alpha Nirvana 39w 8ohm Class A Amp
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Mine whole idea was to get to class D, did some multilevel versions, this because of the parts do not arriving so quick now because of corona, I did play some with that circlotron, however, I think with mosfets, I get quite some distortion on vas and input, with is canceled out on output, but I think that will not give a good sound. input capacitances are the cause of that.
But I go ask on mine circlotron thread.
I have bought a lathe a while ago, so I do make a compression plug for the trynergy to test what it does.
Your design with that current sourse loaded output does work very nice also without feedback, I see you have made the current such that it follows the output current, that is the good way.
So now we are talking by.
regards
Thanks xrk971. I had seen that Peerless driver, but an owner commented in the Q&A that he didn't like the sound in a ported enclosure. Not sure if that applies. But I'll give it a try. I sort of understand using the 6.5" woofers; a bit confused what you mean by offsetting them. And will the slots still be 1/3 of the cone area or is there not enough room on the smaller horn? Got a lot to do b4 I get to that stage.
By offset, I mean that the main bezel/basket of the driver hangs off the edge of the sidewall of the horn, although it is supported by the mounting board. See photo for Trynergy and note that edge of driver goes beyond the curved side wall if it were projected up through the mounting board.
OK cool. I knew that. I ordered the drivers. How about the size of the slots on the uTrynergy with the larger woofers? Just found out that Foamular may be a problem- thought Menards had it, but turns out it's special order only and may have a 96 piece minimum 
Speaker building=finding the workaround. Fun!
Speaker building=finding the workaround. Fun!
The slot area is not that critical just make it about 15% to 20% of cone area. Home Depot carries XPS pink foam.
Amazon?
Pink Insulation Foam 1/2" Thick https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074VPZ8SS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_fJMpEbQY1NT9Q
Only 12in x 12in but could be glued on edge to make bigger ones. Or use plywood.
Amazon?
Pink Insulation Foam 1/2" Thick https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074VPZ8SS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_fJMpEbQY1NT9Q
Only 12in x 12in but could be glued on edge to make bigger ones. Or use plywood.
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You are almost right, the reason or that sharp sound is because if you have high uneven distortion, also these need te be gone, that makes it much better and warmer, but I agree also to clean amps does not sound always oke, But I had one with current feedback and these sound quite warm, I go build the circloton, the class D has to wait because no parts with that corona.
I have by the way corona, because I have a colt, the dutch virus, who is quit more friendly.
Oke, I had now after find out that using a other kind of inputstage I get distortion figures of 0.000062 1.2 amp out and 0.0012 with full power to 100Khz.
Attachments
uTrynergy adventure
I built a pair of uTrynergy boxes, the tiny ones with a U shaped cubic enclosure. Each has 4 6.5” 4 ohm buyout woofers from Parts Express (299-609) and a Peerless TC7FD00-08 2-1/2" 8 ohm full range (299-032). Also had to buy a minidsp 2X4. The whole thing was under $200. Having constructed a dozen different foam core designs by xrk971 for myself and friends, the build was a bit challenging but went together pretty well and they present as a nice little 10 pound box with an awesome tractrix horn. I've been listening to first one speaker for about a week and then the finished pair for the last three days or so. Unlike the mini Karlsonators or Cornus which sounded killer as soon as I hooked them up, these took an inordinate amount of work to get them “close” and I'm still tweaking. I'm not very fond of the minidsp so far. You can only make adjustments when it's hooked up via usb and sync'd with the PC. As soon as you plug a usb cable in it starts generating noise. Like 20% of the sound is a usb storm. Even when not hooked up to the computer, if you power it with the usb cable plugged into a 5V charger let's say, there is a mixmaster sound whenever the music gets quiet. Annoying. I found a power adapter with the right kinda plug and use that now and it's much quieter. But whenever you need to tweak a setting, hurricane action. I also have a wonderful usb dac connected (diy paradise monica) and it's dead quiet. also noticed that when I mute channels in the minidsp app, they don't actually mute. A small amount of sound still comes thru. I read of another user with a more sophisticated model complaining about exactly that thing on their forum, and their answer was “that's impossible” Anyway, I tweaked away and even with good looking graphs in REW the sound was crappy. Not even good. Forget stellar, which was my goal. After a half dozen tries I started to get a good sound. From there I did everything by ear. There is the eq adjustment in each of the 4 x-o channels, in addition to the pre EQ in each input channel. I also top it off with Windows' EQ APO run by Peace. The horn is very dynamic and can be sensitive. So even when I attained a good mix, one or two piano notes would stick out as ear breakers. And usually a couple of bass notes were out of whack. But I kept tweaking. Then vocals were noticeably sibilant, but ironed that out. I'm finally to a point where I'm pretty happy with the sound. It varies from one recording to the next on a bigger scale than I'm used to. But the good stuff is astounding. I also use two 10” subs in wood cabinets in the corners. They are crossed over low ~60Hz and as little volume as possible. Here are some pics of the adventure and a few songs recorded with a small Tascam w/ built-in mics. I could not capture the giant sound stage and excellent stereo image that these speakers create (tried pointing the swivel mics every which way) and the sound is obviously not as lush, missing some rich bottom and making the highs more brittle than they are. But it's a good idea of where they're at. BTW, I chose black foamcore because that was available at Dollar Tree and it looked a bit thicker than the white stuff; harder to cut, but not bad. Thanks X for the design and help.
I built a pair of uTrynergy boxes, the tiny ones with a U shaped cubic enclosure. Each has 4 6.5” 4 ohm buyout woofers from Parts Express (299-609) and a Peerless TC7FD00-08 2-1/2" 8 ohm full range (299-032). Also had to buy a minidsp 2X4. The whole thing was under $200. Having constructed a dozen different foam core designs by xrk971 for myself and friends, the build was a bit challenging but went together pretty well and they present as a nice little 10 pound box with an awesome tractrix horn. I've been listening to first one speaker for about a week and then the finished pair for the last three days or so. Unlike the mini Karlsonators or Cornus which sounded killer as soon as I hooked them up, these took an inordinate amount of work to get them “close” and I'm still tweaking. I'm not very fond of the minidsp so far. You can only make adjustments when it's hooked up via usb and sync'd with the PC. As soon as you plug a usb cable in it starts generating noise. Like 20% of the sound is a usb storm. Even when not hooked up to the computer, if you power it with the usb cable plugged into a 5V charger let's say, there is a mixmaster sound whenever the music gets quiet. Annoying. I found a power adapter with the right kinda plug and use that now and it's much quieter. But whenever you need to tweak a setting, hurricane action. I also have a wonderful usb dac connected (diy paradise monica) and it's dead quiet. also noticed that when I mute channels in the minidsp app, they don't actually mute. A small amount of sound still comes thru. I read of another user with a more sophisticated model complaining about exactly that thing on their forum, and their answer was “that's impossible” Anyway, I tweaked away and even with good looking graphs in REW the sound was crappy. Not even good. Forget stellar, which was my goal. After a half dozen tries I started to get a good sound. From there I did everything by ear. There is the eq adjustment in each of the 4 x-o channels, in addition to the pre EQ in each input channel. I also top it off with Windows' EQ APO run by Peace. The horn is very dynamic and can be sensitive. So even when I attained a good mix, one or two piano notes would stick out as ear breakers. And usually a couple of bass notes were out of whack. But I kept tweaking. Then vocals were noticeably sibilant, but ironed that out. I'm finally to a point where I'm pretty happy with the sound. It varies from one recording to the next on a bigger scale than I'm used to. But the good stuff is astounding. I also use two 10” subs in wood cabinets in the corners. They are crossed over low ~60Hz and as little volume as possible. Here are some pics of the adventure and a few songs recorded with a small Tascam w/ built-in mics. I could not capture the giant sound stage and excellent stereo image that these speakers create (tried pointing the swivel mics every which way) and the sound is obviously not as lush, missing some rich bottom and making the highs more brittle than they are. But it's a good idea of where they're at. BTW, I chose black foamcore because that was available at Dollar Tree and it looked a bit thicker than the white stuff; harder to cut, but not bad. Thanks X for the design and help.
Attachments
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mini x-o.JPG -
02-27-20-uTryn-demo-02.jpg -
02-15,6-20-uTryn-22.jpg -
02-21-20-uTryn#2-05.jpg -
Speak Low Eliane Elias.asc
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Dragon de Lune Hadouk Trio.asc
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Don't U Worry Bout a Thing Jacob Collier.asc
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Blues for Tony Chad Wackerman.asc
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Blues for DP Houston Person Ron Carter.asc
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River Man Lee Ritenour w Kurt Elling, Dave Grusin, Nathan East, Will Kennedy sm .asc
Hi Bonjonno,
Wow - nice work! This is a very advanced foam core project and you made it look great.
This speaker needs a microphone and REW to get right. The process goes like this.
In REW
1. Measure the raw response from tweeter and save
2. Measure the raw response from the woofer and save
3. Go to the EQ utility in REW and choose miniDSP
4. Use the PEQ tools in REW to adjust (via wide low Q cuts, no boosting) to get response to look smooth and relatively flat in region of interest.
5. Do same on woofer.
6. Now apply the high pass on tweeter and low pass on woofer so that they cross, 600Hz to 1000Hz is a good spot.
7. Do all of this in REW until it looks like what you want.
8. Save the setting from REW to a file for miniDSP.
9. Upload to miniDSP and take a measurement with tweeter only, woofer only, and both.
10. Compare to the simulated and predicted result in REW.
11. You may notice that things are off, play with delays. They are important and make the sound coherent when don’t right. An impulse response and step function will show you if timing is off. Also reverse the phase on tweeter and if timing is right on LR12 crossover or BW12 you get a sharp notch at XO. Then flip polarity back. That’s all done in miniDSP
I never had the bad noise you speak of with my miniDSP. Also no bleed through sound. You may have a bad PSU or bad board.
The Dayton DSP-408 will do all of this too and is easier to use. It’s much more real time than miniDSP which requires more software uploads and stuff.
Good luck!
Wow - nice work! This is a very advanced foam core project and you made it look great.
This speaker needs a microphone and REW to get right. The process goes like this.
In REW
1. Measure the raw response from tweeter and save
2. Measure the raw response from the woofer and save
3. Go to the EQ utility in REW and choose miniDSP
4. Use the PEQ tools in REW to adjust (via wide low Q cuts, no boosting) to get response to look smooth and relatively flat in region of interest.
5. Do same on woofer.
6. Now apply the high pass on tweeter and low pass on woofer so that they cross, 600Hz to 1000Hz is a good spot.
7. Do all of this in REW until it looks like what you want.
8. Save the setting from REW to a file for miniDSP.
9. Upload to miniDSP and take a measurement with tweeter only, woofer only, and both.
10. Compare to the simulated and predicted result in REW.
11. You may notice that things are off, play with delays. They are important and make the sound coherent when don’t right. An impulse response and step function will show you if timing is off. Also reverse the phase on tweeter and if timing is right on LR12 crossover or BW12 you get a sharp notch at XO. Then flip polarity back. That’s all done in miniDSP
I never had the bad noise you speak of with my miniDSP. Also no bleed through sound. You may have a bad PSU or bad board.
The Dayton DSP-408 will do all of this too and is easier to use. It’s much more real time than miniDSP which requires more software uploads and stuff.
Good luck!
That's some good rew/minidsp info.
Agreed on the minidsp,never had bleed through. There is an issue with mine in that you need to be careful not to nudge the rca cables and they can need a wiggle before use if you can hear noise on startup.
Thinking of getting the balanced board, although I did pick up a clearone commverge speaker controller l for buttons, but haven't had time to work out how to use it yet.
X, as always, above and beyond. Thanks for the detailed procedure to align my speaks. When I get a second wind! I actually started out with the first speaker by testing the woofers and full range (tweeter) separately thru a calibrated mic from both a 1/2 meter and one meter distance as recommended by mini dsp. I was able to get my response curve well flattened but the sound was horrible. I think there is a problem in the way I get the signal to REW. My system uses an older usb dac (diy paradise Monica) which is output only, but it's full of Black Gates and sounds rich. I then go thru an acurus preamp which was modded 15+ years ago by a guy in Ohio and has alot of Black Gates and auricaps and infinicaps in the signal path. Awesome. But to get a reading into my laptop (asus) I have to use its built-in sound and connect thru a mini jack that doubles as a headphone/mic input. Horrible I know. I am running the calibrated mic into a large digital mixer (behringer x-Air) which supplies its phantom power; it only has xlr outs so I grab the signal from its built-in headphaone amp and patch that into the laptop. The mixer also has usb integration, and a 20 channel matrix. But I tried that and couldn't get it to work w/ REW. I have recorded multitrack thru it to a DAW, so it's not like I don't know how to work it. Also I have a Roland usb unit that has two mic inputs and rca & 1/4" outs, but I couldn't get that to work w/ REW either. So I believe I'm feeding a crappy signal into REW and have no way to adjust for the response of the asus built in sound codecs. That said, I've managed to tune my room for all my other "full range" speakers using REW and they sound great. The uTrynergy's also sound great currently. But I'll try again 'cause every little bit helps. I started with the crossovers you recommend, and have the 0.91 delay on the 2.5", which I kept. But the x-o's I ended up with sounded "right" in my room. At one point in the process I inverted the tweeters for better sound, but they're back in phase now and sound right. It's been a fun experience! Need to air out my head for a while.
I continue to dial in the uTrynergy which sound fabulous. I am beginning to wonder if I have a bad minidsp unit however. In addition to the noise it generates when hooked up via usb, its output is seriously lacking. I've read about how low it is but here is my situation. I have rehooked up my cornu and XiClops. Each one of those systems is being driven by a lunch money amp, the TDA7297 with a couple of capacitor mods. My uTrynergy are being driven by two 3eaudio TPA3251 stereo amps (4 channels altogether). Each has the same signal input from an acurus preamp(uTryns go thru the minidsp). I can only turn up the volume control on the cornu amp about 20% or it drowns out the uTryns. On the XiClops amp I can only turn the volume up to where it begins to pass the signal or it drowns out the uTryns. Doesn't seem right, does it?