It certainly looks a lot better. The values for Vrc and Lrc are now more realistic also.
I will check when I’m back at my PC. Thanks for the great program David, and thanks to all for your assistance and your patience. I’ll figure it out eventually....
Happens all the time here: folks running in circles because the requirements aren't clear.
I suspect most readers are thrilled at seeing some person swear they will proceed with an outrageous quixotic construction project... at least for the first few posts. Remember the emphatic fellow who was building two giant horns in his back yard a year or two ago? He had earth-moving equipment lined up, he said. That long discussion is very applicable to this thread, except he had maxi-watts in mind to power his system.
Lost in the rush is OP's mention of - ready - tubes. Is that a constraint? Ditto for his mention of music band and 35 Hz (brings to mind the famous folded corner horn of 1940 that poops out below about that point, eh). If quality music suggests OP is looking for quality sound, sure off the rails for anybody to (again) suggest a tapped pseudo-horn or maybe sound quality isn't a requirement???
Let's see a reasoned outline of the requirements in light of this discussion so far. THEN design flows from that.
B.
I suspect most readers are thrilled at seeing some person swear they will proceed with an outrageous quixotic construction project... at least for the first few posts. Remember the emphatic fellow who was building two giant horns in his back yard a year or two ago? He had earth-moving equipment lined up, he said. That long discussion is very applicable to this thread, except he had maxi-watts in mind to power his system.
Lost in the rush is OP's mention of - ready - tubes. Is that a constraint? Ditto for his mention of music band and 35 Hz (brings to mind the famous folded corner horn of 1940 that poops out below about that point, eh). If quality music suggests OP is looking for quality sound, sure off the rails for anybody to (again) suggest a tapped pseudo-horn or maybe sound quality isn't a requirement???
Let's see a reasoned outline of the requirements in light of this discussion so far. THEN design flows from that.
B.
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A quick recap....
A 35 x 50 foot room with 11 foot ceilings that will be built with excellent acoustics as the primary goal, and will utilize extensive room treatments.
The system will be used for music only. A very wide variety of music.
Main speakers will be Klipsch Jubilee or equivalent, ie. a horn loaded 2 way with electronic crossovers.
SET amp on the MF/HF horn. Big SET or Push-pull tube amp for the mid bass horn. Push-pull KT120 or KT150 amps for the bass horns.
A very, very large sweet spot is desired, as is the dynamics and impact of an entirely horn loaded system.
Jubilees are impressive looking speakers. The visuals of a full size bass horn will nicely compliment the Jubilees.
A 30Hz F3 would be great, although lower would be better for a limited selection of music. A 35HZ F3 is the absolute minimum acceptable.
I may be able to make a single, centrally located bass horn work in the space.
I have the Alpines at hand, however, I am not stuck on using them. I am happy to purchase a more appropriate driver if required.
FWIW, this basic layout is what I had in mind initially: Basshornplanung (Heimkino Sofa-Sub), Subwoofer - HIFI-FORUM
GM
GM
With a room that large, a folded front horn sub pointed toward you really might work out well. On mine, when i tested it outside in a horizontal orientation without the stand in place, it was more directional than I expected and the visceral impact was much better than when I used it downfiring with the stand. I wonder if room effects would be less important with some directivity?
Bass is not supposed to be directional, but it does feel different when you stand in front of the mouth of a bass horn instead of next to one of the side panels, at the same distance.
Interesting, clever, efficient, clean, but monumental effort for results more easily achieved by other means, and doesn't even go as low as enthusiasts want today and doubly unfeasible except for mixed bass, not stereo.
Requires DSP to time-shift the mids delayed (yes, the nice clean mids with nice sounding tube amps, at least to OP's ears) back an astonishing amount of time to compensate for the extraordinary length of the horn.
Granted, if one is committed to tube amps and nothing else, might be the only way to get thundering low bass.
And besides, like with the guy with the "alternate facts" horns in his backyard, every red-blooded denizen of this forum prays OP will proceed with this kind of astonishing project. Please do it... for all of us dreamers esp those in Toronto who want to hear it.
B.
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Funny you mentioned this, as I was researching it recently. I haven’t heard it, but I have a copy of the PWK schematic and may give it a go.
I am going to do it. A non-disclosure (of sorts) agreement prevents me from sharing the details, but the final system will be accessible to the public in Toronto.
We have a four level brick House of a terrace style, eg no side windows.
Recently it came to my attention the first two, maybe three floors constitute a giant folded horn, starting with the entry foyer room and going up the first set of stairs as the throat, right turn top of stairs to an opening of the horn, about 6m x 6m x 2m and then more horn depending on which doors are opened, internally or to the outside by 4m bifold.
Experimentally, one 8 inch speaker (27hz-6khz on the box) in an open baffle at the top of the first set of stairs gives all the bass you could ever dream of, thru the entire house.
Planning to do some tests on the fundemental resonant freq when I get a chance, but it seems sub 30hz.
Recently it came to my attention the first two, maybe three floors constitute a giant folded horn, starting with the entry foyer room and going up the first set of stairs as the throat, right turn top of stairs to an opening of the horn, about 6m x 6m x 2m and then more horn depending on which doors are opened, internally or to the outside by 4m bifold.
Experimentally, one 8 inch speaker (27hz-6khz on the box) in an open baffle at the top of the first set of stairs gives all the bass you could ever dream of, thru the entire house.
Planning to do some tests on the fundemental resonant freq when I get a chance, but it seems sub 30hz.
Greets!
Yes, thanks, though no need for the .txt printout.
I see you changed the sim and asked DMB about some stuff I was going to point out, but WRT how to spec power, best to use the max SPL option to see where/how much it exceeds Xmax when trying for much output down low.
Anyway, nothing fundamentally wrong with the sim per se, but it needs to include wire, amp output impedance [Rg], which is going to reduce the driver's effective motor strength [Qes], [Qts], change the horn's response, so at least 0.5 ohms for the wire and what is the amp's since it's tubes?
Re matching a horn to a room, with a 50 ft long room, there's no actual room gain until below ~1128.6/2/50 = 11.3 Hz and since this is ~the tuning frequency for the best 16 Hz pipe organ symphony CDs it seems a better overall choice for a < 100 Hz XO point.
Also, a hyperbolic flare is a better choice for bass horns even if it only needs to play down to 32 Hz. Driver Fs will need to be in the ~15-22 Hz range depending on how flat you want it down low.
GM
Yes, bass is no different than any other frequency range, just needs a proportionally bigger horn mouth to control it: F = 10^6/[wall angle*mouth width]
GM
Does the mouth of the horn need to be solid/continuous all the way?
eg do you still get some benefit from the end opening diameter if you flared some planks out to increase the end diameter, but they had gaps of one plank width or more between them?
Or if it was rectangular and you only had 2 opposing sides or maybe 3 of 4 sides?
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