You're preaching to the choir w/r to me.
The harmonic subtraction analysis I posted earlier...I tried to convolve using excel, but had to give up. I couldn't figure out how to get excel to do that "sliding" thing with the sinx/x..
. The beauty of the waveform and system I was analyzing was that the exact frequencies were known. The downside of using an FFT was the fact that a spectrum would not be very intuitive for the mechanical techs who need to fix the physical system.Happy new year Pavel..
jn
Ah, forgot to say..What I was trying to do with convolution was to try and get a time dependent read of the fourth harmonic. Convolution I believe would have shown the base frequency modulation of the 4th as an amplitude waveform. As it was, I had to do it all by hand..
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Gotcha, I don't think that is a matter of opinion, plasticity is a fact. Whether that is relevant to the psychoacoustic techniques used in music production and reproduction is questionable though?
Seems like that is changing the subject a bit. My interest is in how people differ in the their perception of reproduced music. Unfortunately, it is very complicated to trying working with humans, they are more complicated than our human engineered machines, for now anyway.
In terms of physiology, okay.
Brain neuronal organization? Probably not so much IMHO.
I don't have perfect pitch and rather poor relative pitch. Perfect pitch is highly common in native Chinese speakers. That is a pretty impressive difference seems to me.
What, people have a frequency counter in their heads? Not me.
Also, during a period where I practiced drumming regularly, I started to get that clock in my head where you just know exactly when the beat is and where the pocket is, don't even have to think about it. Easy to hear it automatically/effortlessly in music too, how the pocket works to make the music sound the way it does (for rhythmic music only of course).
IME, that isn't present in people unless they have been doing rhythmic physical movements regularly over quite a long period of time, often years.
Also, IME humans can learn to hear other things, say, aberrations in music reproduction too. But like becoming a star basketball player or a star ballet dancer (or whatever else the pursuit) people can practice hard, still there is no guarantee of how far they will get.
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Yes.Yes, some are deafer than others.
I no longer listen to music the same way as when I was 10 or even 20 years old.
What we hear is not only the result of the sound made by our ears. It is interpreted by our brains.
If you don't focus on certain details, you won't hear them.
To take a parallel with our vision, if you do not recognize the shape of certain object, you will not recognize it. If it is are the limit of the power of separation, in a complicated environment, you will not see anything.
[EDIT] Crossed with Markw4, saying the same thing in a different way.
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A new sound is perceived as a potential threat and we can be become overly sensitive to it, like the sounds new neighbours make, they can be quite annoying until we tune them out.
One of my neighbour's has a dog which doesn't like being left alone and tends to whine quietly when they're out, to another of my neighbours the sound is very annoying since she focuses on it and interprets it as the dog suffering, most of the time I don't notice it and when I do it doesn't bother me because it means I know they're not in, and I quite like to know when they're not in.
A convolution can very well done in excel.
If you can tell in detail how you tried to do this, it will be easy to guide you in the right direction.
Hans
Mark, could-you please elaborate ? In PM if you are afraid of all the noise that will be generated in this forum.
About your last sentence, my frequency response hypothesis is an attempt to explain an observed difference. The explanation can be wrong. I believe the observation.
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Thank you very much for the offer. I tried it back in june of '18, and the only detail I can remember is I did it very poorly. Alas, had it been the only thing I've done poorly through my work, it probably would have stood out in my mind better..
Should I need to do it in the near future, I will remember your kind offer.
As it were, manually zeroing the harmonics by altering gain and phase was a good exercise for me..kept me out of trouble, and as I slowly realized that there was a residual that could not be zero'd out by harmonic subtraction, I understood that it was indeed a rough product of two sines. Sometimes being in the trenches helps to clear the mind.
Cheers,
John
ps. Because it is a mechanical system, there's a whole lot of nonlinearities happening. 8mm pitch leadscrew with recirc bearings, 20:1 worm gear, 10:1 involute gear pair, various couplers never aligned properly, 5:1 planetary straight cut involute, then 3 phase brushless motor. I've been helping the guys develop working diagnostics to spot mechanical irregularities, so the waveform analysis is a really strong tool for finding issues. The physicist in the team ran FFT's, but the results didn't really clear the muddy waters. it doesn't help that the magnetic forces on the device are so terribly non linear that the waveforms actually change depending on the physical location of the device. edit:funny, it does sound like I'm talking about a speaker, doesn't it?
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But if you do focus on that detail, what else will you miss? I feel the 'blowtorch cymbal appreciation group' come across as focussing on one tiny thing which stops enjoyment of the whole? It's like viewing 'Un dimanche après-midi à l'Île de la Grande Jatte' for the first time and just staring at one dot.
Or a new creak/squeak/rattle/graunch in your car.!
A project soon to be is a semi automatic back gauge for my press brake. I picked up a pair of sliding blocks recently for $20.00. I was going to use a digital readout with an automobile seat motor, but am leaning towards a stepper motor. Accuracy only need to be .005"
JN
I worked as a test engineer for company that makes inverted roller screws. I collected much data like you have shown from similar systems you described.
We had 3 PE MEs on staff, they would all 3 argue about what the data meant. Exactly the type of arguments we see here with similar points made. I.e., yes, it does look like a speaker...
I would sit back with my coffee and watch the show, better than the WWE some days.
Mike
I worked as a test engineer for company that makes inverted roller screws. I collected much data like you have shown from similar systems you described.
We had 3 PE MEs on staff, they would all 3 argue about what the data meant. Exactly the type of arguments we see here with similar points made. I.e., yes, it does look like a speaker...
I would sit back with my coffee and watch the show, better than the WWE some days.
Mike
How to explain ?
On my PC, I can actually hear all the instruments. But I need a great effort of imagination to reconstruct a reality of the instruments which are given to me to hear.
On my big system, every detail is clearly highlighted. I only "focus" on that when I try to locate where the differences are, In fact, I feel the attack of the mediator on the guitar strings, the stick on the cymbals or the snare, the hammer on the strings of some pianos. The instruments are as if zoomed and in 3D. My PC is blurry, my big system sharp. With the advantages and disadvantages that each carries. I focus on the play of instruments when I listen to music, it's easier to separate on my big system.
See what I mean ?
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How good are analogies between visual and auditory perception? Take a picture or a photograph, you can study it as much as you want, it's not going anywhere. Sound is different, it doesn't exist at a moment in time, and music listening requires memory and anticipation. A good composer knows how to keep your interest via tension and resolution. You can't focus on a sound, you only have your memory of it.
T, for your delectation YouTube
T, for your delectation YouTube
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A friend of mine showed me a link where someone used a bog standard vernier and a bunch of neo button magnets to put DRO on his lathe slide and crossfeed. It was just so simple and elegant, I was dumfounded..well, morso that day.
I will look for it again.
YouTube
Oh, so much of the motor and motion stuff online is so cheap now.
lead screw - Buy Cheap 3D Printer Accessories - From Banggood | US Warehouse
Just bought some stuff for an arduino build. Girlfriend's garage fridge/freezer doesn't like cold ambient. When garage is below 36F, fridge is happy, compressor doesn't turn on at all and the ice cream goes all mush. Building an arduino control that measures freezer, turns a 5 watt 5 volt heater I put just under the fridge thermostat whenever the freezer temp goes above 0 F. Tried a 5 watt light bulb, but because it stays on, the freezer went to 20 below zero...sigh.. the best laid plans..
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Here it's more slow motion. When co-workers are Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, British, Australian, Greek, and non engish speaking American (me), arguments can be a slow process as just understanding what everybody is saying is a tough nut to crack.. And, that's just down the corridor outside my office.
What really amazes me is the accuracy of the leadscrews/recirculating balls. Smoothness of motion at the tens of nanometer level, it just boggles my imagination. And one nanometer optical encoders? Sheesh..
jn
ps...just did a 15k sine sampled at 44.1 This time I used straight lines so it would really be dramatic.. But seriously, I tried it without any lines and the dots look way too confusing. Put it up only because I said I would...
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But you don't say that to those who post claims of audible improvement from high-end amp, DACs, cables...etc, right?
But then it might. You can find out about it instead of trying to spread FUD.
Not exactly the same way but still within humanly possible parameters which you also fall into.
Of course they can. That's why bias controlled, level matched double blind test is necessary to isolate the cause of difference one hears when changing audio cables, DAC chips, amps... etc. Otherwise you don't get meaningful results.
How much money was spent on that research to come up with such conclusion? Not enough in your view, I suppose. In such case, it should be discarded.
Perhaps the problem is that your experience isn't vast enough. You've never seen / heard of those so called golden ears fail DBT despite their ability to discern the difference during the pre-test sessions (subjective comparison).
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