In PA terms they call that good directivity and you pay extra for it. 🙂
Seriously though, my room is too reverberant for loudspeakers with wide dispersion. Midhorns work well for me, line arrays, and I found out that 15" fullrange drivers work well too. Early beaming means less reflections, so to me is an asset. Also, they don't beam perfectly, so dispersion is not as narrow as you'd fear.
Right, ideally needs a multi-stage WG to normalize it ~like RCA's Twin Power BLH: retro vintage modern hi-fi: 1940's RCA TWIN POWER
GM
GM
Here is an alternative to the Metal SB acoustics if you prefer to stick to paper. I would have gone for the Mid woofer version, can handle more bass, almost everything else is the same.
New SB Acoustics 6.5" Satori- Possible FR Use!
Oon
New SB Acoustics 6.5" Satori- Possible FR Use!
Oon
I keep thinking about your comment, Mattes.
https://youtu.be/vFgs8cjb4Cg
That's my most brutal test piece, from the original CD of course. I have played several Mahler symfonies in the same concert hall in Amsterdam (although less brilliantly) with a student symphony orchestra. I have heard the orchestra play Mahler symphonies in the same concert hall, under the same conductor. The hall has a very unique and specific acoustic signature and I think this recording showcases all of it. When played back well, it evokes the excitement and tense concentration of being there.
Particularly the single trumpet opening the movement and the full philharmonic orchestra joining in like a wall of sound later on are really tough. The trumpet easily sounds soft or muddled, the wall of sound is easily compressed or chaotic. Choked.
Some of the things I think I have observed are necessary for really nice reproduction of a Mahler symphony:
- a wide frequency range, especially deep, deep bass (string bass, large percussion, that low frequency acoustic information that's so typical of this concert hall)
- high dynamic capabilities (no choking on dynamics, no perceived change in sound when music gets louder)
- smooth frequency response (in the final loudspeaker, so after filtering/EQ),
- narrowish dispersion to prevent excessive room sound (which smears loud passages and colours instruments)
I am very happy with my 15" Fane fullrange units in backloaded/pipe horns, they go down low enough in-room (below 20Hz) and they can handle high SPL without distortion or changes in sound character. They beam a fair bit as well, which I like in my live room. This is after a bit of EQ here and there and everywhere, done inside my Marantz AV receiver.
Whether 8" is going to do it, is an interesting question. I have had a single 8" BIB for a subwoofer that sounded wonderful and the cone didn't move too much. But the midrange of the 15" Fane drivers is something else, so clear and dynamic. There really is no substitute for cone area in loudspeaker design, and that doesn't only apply to bass.
I play the trombone myself, my brother plays the trumpet. I have been conducted and coached by famous leading brass players from the classical scene in the Netherlands and this is part of the connection to this piece. So when I had the speakers built and tuned up, I was eager to play Mahler 5.
My wife listened carefully and commented: "Wow, these speakers really make the oboe sound good, dear."
Hi Ivo,
a very interesting point and discussion, and I envy your first-hand musical experience, in which I never succeeded, and gave up being a musician loooong ago...
Approaching the issue from a more technical standpoint, of course you´re right with the list of necessities. I think that, however, one important point is missing: reproduction room size and acoustics. I believe that it´s not possible to recreate a full symphonic orchestra in a listening room of average, or even big size (which I don´t have).
Well, I don´t listen to large symphonic works, most possibly due to the fact that I´m not able to reproduce those in my room, no matter how much I invest, and I believe that my system is of decent quality.
Luckily, my musical taste is different, and I approach things from a different direction of the musical spectrum. I like contemporary jazz trio works, Tord Gustavsen, Julia Hülsmann, you name it, the ECM stuff.
I want a totally realistic illusion of piano, upright bass and jazz drums in my listening room, and I (being here mostly conform with your points above) therefore need
- wide frequency range (actually I have something like 25 Hz - 17 Khz +- a few dBs)
- high dynamic capabilities (more than 100 db maximum at listening distance, across the bandwith above), together with a silent environment (I live in the countryside and can follow the music down to -70 dB from listening level, so this is the dynamic variation I could achieve) and a room (and family...) allowing for that dynamics (even late at night...).
- sure, frequency response should be even to a reasonable amount.
- and, the most difficult point, a realistic 3-dimensional recreation of the instruments in space (not necessarily the original space, as this is hard to achieve, but a convincing illusion, which means in reality a mixture of recording acoustics and my own room).
This was the hardest to achieve in a 6,25 m x 4,18 m room. Speakers are app. 2 m away from side and back walls, are positioned symmetrically in the room (important for dipoles), which by itself is 95 % symmetrical (again, important for dipoles).
The instruments must have realistic size and must fit in my room. Of course, if I close my eyes, room walls especially behind the speakers disappear and the room acoustically opens up, but never wide enough for an orchestra. This will never fit inside, given speakers are app. 2,5 m. from each other. Or, the other way round, they will fit, but reduced in size, so a miniature orchestra of, let´s say 5 m wide and 6 m deep is possible, but for me the illusion is thus destroyed.
Now, over the years, I have invested lots of work and money, and it works, to my ears, very good with small acoustical events, at original level.
Knowing well how much efforts I have invested to achieve this result, which works for me every night, I would not even think of approaching to recreate a full symphonic orchestra (or original loudness Metallica...), I realise well that this would be far beyond my capabilities and beyond of what is possible in my room.
Of course, a single oboe can sound very convincing, no problem...
What, however, has now been left out of the discussion is what I find to be the most revealing factor for the recreation of a realistic illusion, which is the quality of the recording. This is for me the decisive factor, and sadly one that is beyond my control (other than to buy a record or not).
Now I feel that this discussion, however interesting, has gone OT, and I apologize to the TO.
Back on topic, Jeff, have you had a look at the new TB coax drivers? Of course, not fullrange, but if I would approach an 8-inch project, I would look into those as well.
All the best
Mattes
a very interesting point and discussion, and I envy your first-hand musical experience, in which I never succeeded, and gave up being a musician loooong ago...
Approaching the issue from a more technical standpoint, of course you´re right with the list of necessities. I think that, however, one important point is missing: reproduction room size and acoustics. I believe that it´s not possible to recreate a full symphonic orchestra in a listening room of average, or even big size (which I don´t have).
Well, I don´t listen to large symphonic works, most possibly due to the fact that I´m not able to reproduce those in my room, no matter how much I invest, and I believe that my system is of decent quality.
Luckily, my musical taste is different, and I approach things from a different direction of the musical spectrum. I like contemporary jazz trio works, Tord Gustavsen, Julia Hülsmann, you name it, the ECM stuff.
I want a totally realistic illusion of piano, upright bass and jazz drums in my listening room, and I (being here mostly conform with your points above) therefore need
- wide frequency range (actually I have something like 25 Hz - 17 Khz +- a few dBs)
- high dynamic capabilities (more than 100 db maximum at listening distance, across the bandwith above), together with a silent environment (I live in the countryside and can follow the music down to -70 dB from listening level, so this is the dynamic variation I could achieve) and a room (and family...) allowing for that dynamics (even late at night...).
- sure, frequency response should be even to a reasonable amount.
- and, the most difficult point, a realistic 3-dimensional recreation of the instruments in space (not necessarily the original space, as this is hard to achieve, but a convincing illusion, which means in reality a mixture of recording acoustics and my own room).
This was the hardest to achieve in a 6,25 m x 4,18 m room. Speakers are app. 2 m away from side and back walls, are positioned symmetrically in the room (important for dipoles), which by itself is 95 % symmetrical (again, important for dipoles).
The instruments must have realistic size and must fit in my room. Of course, if I close my eyes, room walls especially behind the speakers disappear and the room acoustically opens up, but never wide enough for an orchestra. This will never fit inside, given speakers are app. 2,5 m. from each other. Or, the other way round, they will fit, but reduced in size, so a miniature orchestra of, let´s say 5 m wide and 6 m deep is possible, but for me the illusion is thus destroyed.
Now, over the years, I have invested lots of work and money, and it works, to my ears, very good with small acoustical events, at original level.
Knowing well how much efforts I have invested to achieve this result, which works for me every night, I would not even think of approaching to recreate a full symphonic orchestra (or original loudness Metallica...), I realise well that this would be far beyond my capabilities and beyond of what is possible in my room.
Of course, a single oboe can sound very convincing, no problem...
What, however, has now been left out of the discussion is what I find to be the most revealing factor for the recreation of a realistic illusion, which is the quality of the recording. This is for me the decisive factor, and sadly one that is beyond my control (other than to buy a record or not).
Now I feel that this discussion, however interesting, has gone OT, and I apologize to the TO.
Back on topic, Jeff, have you had a look at the new TB coax drivers? Of course, not fullrange, but if I would approach an 8-inch project, I would look into those as well.
All the best
Mattes
No apology needed Matt's. I look at it like the more talk and sharing the more info I get. So I settled on the 8 inch do to room size And wife factor. I have heard the bigger the driver the bigger the beaming you will get. I have no idea if this is true or not? Still learning at lot. Cheers. Jeff
Beaming is very easy to calculate. Divide 13,512 by the speaker’s actual cone diameter in inches to get the frequency at which beaming begins. From that point dispersion continues to narrow as frequency increases.
Don’t use the outside frame measurement. Manufacturers don’t usually spec the actual cone diameter, but you can assume it be about 2” smaller than the frame for a circular frame. Squared off or truncated frames may make the difference a little less. But for Mark Audio drivers you can assume about a 4” difference, since they have a very wide frame.
So beaming generally starts as follows:
Typical 10” frame at 1,689 Hz
Typical 8” frame at 2,252 Hz
Typical 6” frame at 3,378 Hz
Typical 5” frame at 4,504 Hz
Hi Jeff,
yes, of course it´s true what you´ve heard. This is physics, as classicalfan noted. Depending on construction details, there´s a bit of give and take between drivers, but that is not that important.
Whether beaming is a good thing or not, now that´s interesting and source of endless discussions... in the end it´s down to application and taste.
One thing to keep in mind is that you´ll never have a large listening zone with an 8-inch fullrange. No need for the head-in-a-vice clichee, but beaming will lead to a relatively small listening zone.
Try it for yourself to see, err hear, if you like it: get the relatively affordable SEAS FA 22 (http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...e&id=375:h1597-08-fa22rcz&catid=53&Itemid=466) and make a cheap chipboard box, follow the application notes (http://www.seas.no/images/stories/prestige/pdfdatasheet/fa22rcz_appnote.pdf), use the described filter and if you like it, think about better boxes etc.
If you don´t like it, sell the drivers again and be happy about lessons learned without too much loss...
This will teach you more and will give you more answers than the next 183 pages of this thread...
All the best
Mattes
yes, of course it´s true what you´ve heard. This is physics, as classicalfan noted. Depending on construction details, there´s a bit of give and take between drivers, but that is not that important.
Whether beaming is a good thing or not, now that´s interesting and source of endless discussions... in the end it´s down to application and taste.
One thing to keep in mind is that you´ll never have a large listening zone with an 8-inch fullrange. No need for the head-in-a-vice clichee, but beaming will lead to a relatively small listening zone.
Try it for yourself to see, err hear, if you like it: get the relatively affordable SEAS FA 22 (http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...e&id=375:h1597-08-fa22rcz&catid=53&Itemid=466) and make a cheap chipboard box, follow the application notes (http://www.seas.no/images/stories/prestige/pdfdatasheet/fa22rcz_appnote.pdf), use the described filter and if you like it, think about better boxes etc.
If you don´t like it, sell the drivers again and be happy about lessons learned without too much loss...
This will teach you more and will give you more answers than the next 183 pages of this thread...
All the best
Mattes
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
Remember, with a whizzer cone the dispersion is not limited by the size of the main cone. I know... semantics...it's more akin to a coaxial two-way. However, with a good whizzer beaming may be a non-issue altogether. I haven't heard the AN 8" but the AN 15" I have has excellent treble dispersion.
I've also experienced relatively good dispersion from the Alpair 10.3 driver which has no whizzer. I think the detailed design of the driver has a lot to say about the end result.
As said already, low or high treble dispersion is by itself not a problem, it depends on your goals, room, speaker positioning etc. In general, I read that most people find beaming undesirable because of the large difference in dispersion across the audio frequency range creates a less authentic sound field. The only experience I've had with this issue was listening to some panel speakers, those electrostatic jobs. The treble was so directional that it would sound odd if during a listening session you simply stood up and found uour ears in a zone without the treble and all the 'air' disappeared. I would not be happy with that.
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That, i beleive, is for an idealized flat piston. When talking FRs they act like a piston below some frequency and become chaotic above that, the bestter the FR the more controled that chaos is. The dispersion of a FR has a lot to do with its shape.
dave
Hi everybody,
i was reading this post and it is a late reaction but if you have interest in a very good 8 inch fullrange look at Sonido from Hungaria...
I have the Sonido SFR-200a whit Alnico magnet in a big back loaded horn and i love it very much!
They are very affordable and worth every penny!
Before these i had the Alpair 12.2 wich was very good, the Cube Audio FA8 and now the Sonido, at 1/4 of the price of the Cube i can only take my hat of!
Regards Rudi
i was reading this post and it is a late reaction but if you have interest in a very good 8 inch fullrange look at Sonido from Hungaria...
I have the Sonido SFR-200a whit Alnico magnet in a big back loaded horn and i love it very much!
They are very affordable and worth every penny!
Before these i had the Alpair 12.2 wich was very good, the Cube Audio FA8 and now the Sonido, at 1/4 of the price of the Cube i can only take my hat of!
Regards Rudi
Before anyone goes down the road of DIY with large fullrange drivers, they owe it to themselves to take a listen to the new Magnepan LSR for $650 a pair. Of course not everyone has the room for such a large speaker but I tell ya, I haven’t heard anything nearly as good at 10x the price. The coherence is simply outstanding......a large panel that behaves like a huge pointsource.......incredible for the money.
Rudi, could you please share the info on the horn you have? I have the same drivers, now on small OBs, and I am still undecided which horn to go for. I like the looks of AION, but there are other options.
I have the SEAS 8 inch full range drivers in 2.8 cubic foot bar cabinets for the last 5 years in my listening room .
I could listen to them happily all day long .
The filter suggested by SEAS is installed in the cabinets and resistor coil values have been adjusted 3 times so far . They have 2 different circuits you can use .
I could listen to them happily all day long .
The filter suggested by SEAS is installed in the cabinets and resistor coil values have been adjusted 3 times so far . They have 2 different circuits you can use .
My only listening experience of that type of speaker was 4 huge Quads, stacked 2x2. While the sound was really impressive, there was almost no soundstage. Just two walls of the same sound left and right. I prefer the sound of my dual driver 0.53 Karlsonators, although they seriously lack bass.
The Maggie’s when placed 3ft from the walls certainly doesn’t lack ANY soundstage...... you gotta hear em once they’re in the wild!