depends on how good it is. We can’t know till we hear it. Given the A11ms (which i have heard) Mark’s track record it probably will be.
dave
dave
Jeffery,
You're the one that started this thread by asking about an 8" FR, and we need to thank you for doing so. It has gradually morphed into more of a discussion about a WAW solution and that's very worthwhile. There have been similar discussions before, but this one is going well and I think will prove to be useful.
I don't think there is a single best solution, because we all have different listening environments, musical tastes, and acoustic priorities.
My top priority is very low distortion, but that's hard to determine since driver manufacturers don't provide a specification for it. I'm going to have to rely on anecdotal information, which is sparse, or actually purchase drivers to test, which is expensive. Nevertheless, that's going to be my primary criterion in making a driver choice.
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The key tradeoff with the FAST/WAW approach is that you are going to lose sensitivity, since there are few if any 95dB sensitive 4" FR drivers out there. This is why 8" FR drivers are interesting.
Am in awe. You just made my day. Well I have never been thanked before for starting a discussion or topic on fullrange driver's. Yes am still going to get a 8 inch fullrange driver for my bed room system for sure now. I will most likely make a fast design or a simple 2 way like the Visaton Stella speakers aka Tysen design from planet 10. I am glad so many of you diyers are joining in and just saying what you have learned or gone through. Am most greatful for all the advice I get on this forum. 8 inch fullrange driver's will always have a special part in my life because the first fullrange driver's I got we're from Larry that owned Madisound years a go. I got to meet him in person wonderful man. Any who I got my first set of fullrange driver's. The fostex fe206e's I made and put in a open baffle. Without starting with parts Express and Eric in tech support (rip) my friend from 1992. Also zaylatron and meniscus audio group and the fullrange driver forum and audioxpress magazine. So again not new to this speaker building just new to going deeper into the design and builds. So to get back on topic yes it's hard to determine anything with speaker manufactures? So I will start using my woofer tester #2 from smith and Larson. Jeff
P.s. The PS220p from Dayton Audio is on sale right now at parts Express? I wonder how they sound? Jeff
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Hi. I should have told you about my first fullrange driver was a fostex fe206n driver's. So 8 inch fullrange driver's have a very special place in my life because of my hearing problems. Any who sorry I couldn't find the words or answer now I have. Cheers Jeff
I will give my update when I have my drivers on hand. Thanks for everyone's advice and help. Jeff
Hi Jeff,
my first fullrange driver was the 8-inch Coral Beta 8, so 8 inch always to me sounds like a feasable solution. 30 years forward, and the Corals sadly sold many years ago, I´m still listening to an 8-inch fullrange driver.
But, I have a pair of 18-inch bass drivers below 300 Hz... and from there upwards, I think that 8 inch, if made correctly, can provide a nice balance of dynamics, low distorsion, okayish bandwith (when filtered correctly) and okayish dispersion. It´s all a compromise...
Most probably you´ll find that some 6-inch or 10-inch drivers work also well.
I have, however, not succeded in nearly 40 years to recreate a Mahler concert in my living room, for various reasons. I wouldn´t either approach to do that with an 8-inch driver, also not with an 18-inch bass helper.
To do that realistically, you´ll need a very large room, and very large loudspeakers. YMMV.
I don´t have this room, and I don´t care... prefer jazz trios, but at original level, and yes, piano or upright bass can be very loud.
Back to your initial questions:
- The B 200 is not bad, but needs taming and/or filtering. Lots of suggestions and discussions online.
- The Audax 21 seems to be tricky to get right, therefore I didn´t try it. There was a solution by German magazine Hobby-Hifi, but the conclusions were more so and so...
- I liked the W-1808 a lot. Needs a little bit of correction (either passive or DSP), but rewards your efforts. Very good for the money. Even better with helper woofer. Lots of suggestions and discussions online.
- The F200A is probably very good, and maybe one of the best Fostexes ever. If you´re planning to spend this amount of money, I´ll suggest to have a look at the FERTIN LB8MkII as well. This has, of course in my personal opinion only, bettered the Tangband. Not by much, you know, diminishing returns. This is my second-best fullrange driver.
Apart from the Audax, I have these drivers, and have listened to them in relatively similar conditions.
Interesting discussion however!
All the best
Mattes
my first fullrange driver was the 8-inch Coral Beta 8, so 8 inch always to me sounds like a feasable solution. 30 years forward, and the Corals sadly sold many years ago, I´m still listening to an 8-inch fullrange driver.
But, I have a pair of 18-inch bass drivers below 300 Hz... and from there upwards, I think that 8 inch, if made correctly, can provide a nice balance of dynamics, low distorsion, okayish bandwith (when filtered correctly) and okayish dispersion. It´s all a compromise...
Most probably you´ll find that some 6-inch or 10-inch drivers work also well.
I have, however, not succeded in nearly 40 years to recreate a Mahler concert in my living room, for various reasons. I wouldn´t either approach to do that with an 8-inch driver, also not with an 18-inch bass helper.
To do that realistically, you´ll need a very large room, and very large loudspeakers. YMMV.
I don´t have this room, and I don´t care... prefer jazz trios, but at original level, and yes, piano or upright bass can be very loud.
Back to your initial questions:
- The B 200 is not bad, but needs taming and/or filtering. Lots of suggestions and discussions online.
- The Audax 21 seems to be tricky to get right, therefore I didn´t try it. There was a solution by German magazine Hobby-Hifi, but the conclusions were more so and so...
- I liked the W-1808 a lot. Needs a little bit of correction (either passive or DSP), but rewards your efforts. Very good for the money. Even better with helper woofer. Lots of suggestions and discussions online.
- The F200A is probably very good, and maybe one of the best Fostexes ever. If you´re planning to spend this amount of money, I´ll suggest to have a look at the FERTIN LB8MkII as well. This has, of course in my personal opinion only, bettered the Tangband. Not by much, you know, diminishing returns. This is my second-best fullrange driver.
Apart from the Audax, I have these drivers, and have listened to them in relatively similar conditions.
Interesting discussion however!
All the best
Mattes
Dear Jeffrey,
I think the equation on what is the best selection for 8" will also depend on the electronics you are thinking off. Are we talking 2A3 or a 100W class D? Also, if you are intending WAW, how do you plan to execute it? An active crossover, or a passive or a DSP? This would play into the sensitivity part. If 2A3, I think you can forget about the markaudio. WAW is really difficult to implement passively. Huge coils with ferrite core. But I guess if subwoofer can do it, it is actually achievable.
The SEAS Fa22 is nice with 3mm of xmax and will give many modern day midwoofer a run for their money if your cabinet is big enough. I have that, but the off axis treble sucks big time. Needs a tweeter crossed at 5KHz or so. But the midrange is seductive
The Dayton is also quite nice, the treble is not perfect but is pretty decent. There is a design for it called the singularity.
Oon
I think the equation on what is the best selection for 8" will also depend on the electronics you are thinking off. Are we talking 2A3 or a 100W class D? Also, if you are intending WAW, how do you plan to execute it? An active crossover, or a passive or a DSP? This would play into the sensitivity part. If 2A3, I think you can forget about the markaudio. WAW is really difficult to implement passively. Huge coils with ferrite core. But I guess if subwoofer can do it, it is actually achievable.
The SEAS Fa22 is nice with 3mm of xmax and will give many modern day midwoofer a run for their money if your cabinet is big enough. I have that, but the off axis treble sucks big time. Needs a tweeter crossed at 5KHz or so. But the midrange is seductive
The Dayton is also quite nice, the treble is not perfect but is pretty decent. There is a design for it called the singularity.
Oon
Mattes thanks for weighing in this discussion on 8 inch fullrange driver's. I agree with you no driver will ever reproduce as good as natural sound from a live Orchestra but it can get close. I am just trying to spread my wings and see more options on 8 inch fullrange driver's out there. Thanks for sharing your experiences with the fullrange range driver's I listed. It helps out alot. Thanks Jeff
On a slightly different note. I found some speakers that work quite well as FR even though they are not meant to be. The aluminum cones (NAC) from SBacoustics are not bad as fullrange, tried the 4" and the 5“...
Oon
Oon
Hi Oon. So am not going active as of yet and no dsp in my set up. I am still looking at options for driving the fullrange driver's I am getting. I do have a older jvc integrated amp that goes from 2 ohms all the way up to 16 ohms. In mint condition from a friend and sounds neutral. I am using ofc and I do my own wires now. I will look into the seas fullrange drivers you had mention about. Also I have heard nothing but good things about the drivers you listed. Cheers Jeff
These are listed as 8" woofers, but they respond to 15KHz. Go figure.
8" SB23NACS45-8 :: SB Acoustics
Since you are not biamping. 8"woofer and a tweeter with a single capacitor is much easier to build.
I had done that combo on the Seas before and it sounds great.
Oon.
8" SB23NACS45-8 :: SB Acoustics
Since you are not biamping. 8"woofer and a tweeter with a single capacitor is much easier to build.
I had done that combo on the Seas before and it sounds great.
Oon.
I was just looking through the 8" SB acoustics aluminium cone I shared earlier.
In madisound web page. The driver is expected to go down to 31Hz on a 2 cubic feet box. With a xmax of 13mm pk to pk. This is a full range with killer bass.... After all it is really a woofer... Just that it also happens to have a frequency response that goes up 15KHz. The off axis is not too bad, drops 10db and then plateaus..I wonder how it will be like in a mltl.
I have only heard the 5" version. So I am making a guess of the sound of the 8". The sound is actually quite pleasant. The break up doesn't have much nasties (probably because of the lines on the cones). I think with a super tweeter it will be quite awesome. Although truthfully, my ear response is up to 13KHz only. But the super tweeter will add a lot more air.
Would love to hear that one day.
Oon
In madisound web page. The driver is expected to go down to 31Hz on a 2 cubic feet box. With a xmax of 13mm pk to pk. This is a full range with killer bass.... After all it is really a woofer... Just that it also happens to have a frequency response that goes up 15KHz. The off axis is not too bad, drops 10db and then plateaus..I wonder how it will be like in a mltl.
I have only heard the 5" version. So I am making a guess of the sound of the 8". The sound is actually quite pleasant. The break up doesn't have much nasties (probably because of the lines on the cones). I think with a super tweeter it will be quite awesome. Although truthfully, my ear response is up to 13KHz only. But the super tweeter will add a lot more air.
Would love to hear that one day.
Oon
Dear all,
even though it´s technically possible, I have a hard time thinking about an 8-inch aluminium driver, doing 13 mm excursion and trying to produce correct treble in the same time...
I have not checked the moving mass for the SB units, but in my opinion a wideband unit has to be relatively light, with a strong motor. This will, of course, compromise the bass output, but it´s about compromises in the end. I believe that the fact that most wideband units have 3 or less mm travel one direction is there for a good reason, and to circumvent the bass compromise you´ll need a real woofer. This will be better in the bass region, and it will be better in the upper part of the spectrum as well, due to stress relieve for the wideband unit.
Of course, it´s possible to build a two-way with a high crossover frequency, and then you´re free to choose from several more units, but I feel that this is not the direction the TO wanted to go. Entirely possible, though, with it´s own set of troubles and compromises.
I have experienced the "real" fullrange set of compromises once more recently, when I suffered a sudden productivity boost and made myself a small loudspeaker, cheap and cute (see below, total cost a lot less than filter parts for my main speakers...). Actually, it´s quite OK for moderate levels, but of course dynamic restricted, and I need it just as a replacement for my main speakers during works on the latter. Still need to do a few measurements and design a filter...
All the best
Mattes
even though it´s technically possible, I have a hard time thinking about an 8-inch aluminium driver, doing 13 mm excursion and trying to produce correct treble in the same time...
I have not checked the moving mass for the SB units, but in my opinion a wideband unit has to be relatively light, with a strong motor. This will, of course, compromise the bass output, but it´s about compromises in the end. I believe that the fact that most wideband units have 3 or less mm travel one direction is there for a good reason, and to circumvent the bass compromise you´ll need a real woofer. This will be better in the bass region, and it will be better in the upper part of the spectrum as well, due to stress relieve for the wideband unit.
Of course, it´s possible to build a two-way with a high crossover frequency, and then you´re free to choose from several more units, but I feel that this is not the direction the TO wanted to go. Entirely possible, though, with it´s own set of troubles and compromises.
I have experienced the "real" fullrange set of compromises once more recently, when I suffered a sudden productivity boost and made myself a small loudspeaker, cheap and cute (see below, total cost a lot less than filter parts for my main speakers...). Actually, it´s quite OK for moderate levels, but of course dynamic restricted, and I need it just as a replacement for my main speakers during works on the latter. Still need to do a few measurements and design a filter...
All the best
Mattes
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It’s hard to beat the single large cone (15” being nice!) with whizzer, although it’s essentially a two-way with mechanical XO it represents a good set of compromises.
Thanks again Mattes for sharing your experiences and now with pictures. Looks like a nice build. I driver looks nice as well. So yes this is not the way I wanted to go with a 2 way set up. Yes most fullrange drivers I see (besides the Mark Audio units have been little xmax. I am still looking at all my possibilities and have not yet chooses a fullrange driver to buy,. Thanks for your help. Maybe I can build a nice little 2 way for my wife in the near future. She wants sound and even if it comes from a cheap speaker she's happy. Thanks Mattes. Jeff
Bigun yes sounds like a driver worth looking into and trying? I have had my eye on the A. N. Classic 15 for a long time now. I just don't know what to expect from such a huge fullrange driver? Also the price went up so is it worth the extra money now? I wonder if someone has reviewed these driver's yet? Thanks Bigun Jeff
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