Hi Freddi,
I am running sims of the Delta10A and am only getting about 92.3dB at 2.83v and 1m. Fb is 61Hz (midpoint between impedance peaks), F6 is 50.5Hz, F3 is 55Hz, and cabinet is 12in wide x 12in deep x 16in tall (all internal dimensions) with a 12in wide x 1in deep x 9.0in long slot vent. Internal volume is 38liters. Front chamber is 1/3rd of total volume. If you use 1/2in BB ply, add 1in for all external dimensions. I am not sure how Eminence gets 97dB sensitivity. It may be baffle step falloff as that is 5dB drop. So you will need a BSC filter.
Hope this helps,
X
I am running sims of the Delta10A and am only getting about 92.3dB at 2.83v and 1m. Fb is 61Hz (midpoint between impedance peaks), F6 is 50.5Hz, F3 is 55Hz, and cabinet is 12in wide x 12in deep x 16in tall (all internal dimensions) with a 12in wide x 1in deep x 9.0in long slot vent. Internal volume is 38liters. Front chamber is 1/3rd of total volume. If you use 1/2in BB ply, add 1in for all external dimensions. I am not sure how Eminence gets 97dB sensitivity. It may be baffle step falloff as that is 5dB drop. So you will need a BSC filter.
Hope this helps,
X
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oh X - your help is very much appreciated. Its certainly a great size. Is that ~92.5dB a lower sensitivity than the Beta 8cx XKi? Eminence takes data from their speakers mounted on a baffle which mounts into a wall - could that be part of situation?
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here's a "K10" size cabinet with Delta 10A vs a K12 size with PYM1298 which is the same spec as a Kappa 12a (which Eminence rates "99.3dB")
its seen the generic 1K6 Eminence crossover lowpass isn't sufficient for Delta 10a's rise
I hope the resultant speaker (XKi or K) would be a bit smoother - IIRC
Eminence's B102 is smooth but might take a lot larger cabinet (?)
hmm - Hornresp indicates ~ "97dB" - did I make a typo when giving you Delta10a's specs???
I think they look ok (?)
Def_Driver "Eminence Delta 10A" | 10 inch midbass Xmax 3.5mm
Sd=344.9
Fs=66
Mms=32
Qms=6.53
Qes=0.35
Re=5.42
BL=14.4T/m
Le=0.74mH
Vas=30.5
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here's a "K10" size cabinet with Delta 10A vs a K12 size with PYM1298 which is the same spec as a Kappa 12a (which Eminence rates "99.3dB")
its seen the generic 1K6 Eminence crossover lowpass isn't sufficient for Delta 10a's rise
I hope the resultant speaker (XKi or K) would be a bit smoother - IIRC
Eminence's B102 is smooth but might take a lot larger cabinet (?)
hmm - Hornresp indicates ~ "97dB" - did I make a typo when giving you Delta10a's specs???
I think they look ok (?)
Def_Driver "Eminence Delta 10A" | 10 inch midbass Xmax 3.5mm
Sd=344.9
Fs=66
Mms=32
Qms=6.53
Qes=0.35
Re=5.42
BL=14.4T/m
Le=0.74mH
Vas=30.5
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~92 isn't shabby for 4pi - dunno if a steeper passive highpass would allow a compression driver some safety - but I have tun K-tubes from Eminence's 1K6 (textbook) 1600Hz 3rd order highpass without hearing strain. I did hear the Ti PRV CD strain on a coax with that crossover.
Do you think 1/2" plywood with some bracing will work at higher power inputs? 5/8" on the 0.62X K15 does Ok other than an unbraced back which flexes too much.
~13x13x17 or so would be a cool size - K-tube or hot FR on top.
Your Beta 8cx XKi is still under consideration - anymore thoughts about its vent, etc?
Do you think 1/2" plywood with some bracing will work at higher power inputs? 5/8" on the 0.62X K15 does Ok other than an unbraced back which flexes too much.
~13x13x17 or so would be a cool size - K-tube or hot FR on top.
Your Beta 8cx XKi is still under consideration - anymore thoughts about its vent, etc?
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Hi Freddi,
I think 1/2in void free BB ply is the right thickness for a compact box like this. The internal angled baffle and folded channel vent give extra bracing. The back wall needs a brace as well as bottom panel.
1k6 is always going to strain a 1in CD. They really like 2k5 and higher.
I need to revisit the Beta 8cx with titanium dome tweeter. It sounded so promising in foam core but when put in a large plybox just sounded off. It needs a PRV 5MR as the tweeter - and XO around 700Hz. That would be ideal as total sensitivity would be 95dB or so with dual Beta 8cx in parallel.
I think 1/2in void free BB ply is the right thickness for a compact box like this. The internal angled baffle and folded channel vent give extra bracing. The back wall needs a brace as well as bottom panel.
1k6 is always going to strain a 1in CD. They really like 2k5 and higher.
I need to revisit the Beta 8cx with titanium dome tweeter. It sounded so promising in foam core but when put in a large plybox just sounded off. It needs a PRV 5MR as the tweeter - and XO around 700Hz. That would be ideal as total sensitivity would be 95dB or so with dual Beta 8cx in parallel.
Kappa 15c, sorry
Apart from that , I also have a pair of crites cast woofers in a pair of Klipsch belle clones
An idea I've been toying with is replace the belle bass bin with something of equivalent bulk but which can go lower than a stock Klipsch bin (which rolls off below 100 Hz) and higher (about 600-800 Hz)
The easy option would be a reflex bin - like an altec 19
I've tried K15 in the past but they start to sound "different" above 400 Hz. I wonder if your designs can do any better . What I was thinking is a karlson variant lying on it's side . As we know karlsons have awesome hit but the stock k15 rolls off a bit early below 60 Hz.if we could get another 0.75 to 1 octave below that , I can run true 2 way without needing a sub
I'm not too constructed by bulk but ideally, the cab would match the dimensions of my bass bin .
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...ates-variation-belle-klipsch.html#post4207025
Hope that explains my use case .
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CW1526C cast frame.
FS is 26.3, Re is 3.36, VAS is 506.3 Liters, BL is 12.49, QM is 9.93, QE is 0.27, QT is 0.26. Sensitivity is 97 db. Coil is 1 mH.
Pmax is 150 watts. Xmax is 7.15 mm, MMS is 75.5 grams, Cms is 0.486 mm/N/CODE]Ok, so let’s shoot for circa -6dB at ~30Hz and -3dB at ~40Hz ok? Having no real limitation on bulk is a nice advantage when it comes to modeling a solution. There will be some the usual Karlson “W” dips in the 200Hz to 500Hz range, but generally not audible. Some drivers are perfect for this alignment, others not so much - we will have to see how it works in the sim.
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I had a little "W" with a 41.5" tall x 22" W x 16" D K18. Maybe as the front chamber wasn't very deep (?) An xtra chamber can be added to a regular K's front chamber for smoothing and almost sure certain cavity depths can be smoother than others. (One "small" K18 did pretty well built like a big K12 with 25 degree baffle tilt - the commonly known one from 1956, published in the July 1958 issue of Popular Mechanics. It used two square vents rather than distributed slits. Those narrow slits create hellacious harmonics when driven with clean sine in the region of tuning - but subjectively can play nice - especially with acoustic instruments)
K15 was meant for coaxial but works well with K-tube tweeter. K15 seemed finicky with which horns matched up. Bruce Edgar's 250Hz tractrix driven by JBL LE5 wasn't very good - yet a 30 inch wide by about 7" tall radial mid horn coming in at 700Hz and driven by a Symbiotik Altec compression driver sounded real good - better than I ever got from any FR. (an Audax ring radiator was used for the top) I would not relegate K15 to low xover points.
There was only one thing wrong with the speaker below (other than liking the low mass EVM18B for the best graph) - I don't like its look one bit ! -otherwise its very good. Also, maybe that aspect gave up some extra dB in the "hit" region vs Karlson's original aspect ? - whadya guyz think ????
A proper Karlsonator15 would go at least a half octave lower than K15 (and maybe in the same overall bulk - a tapped pipe
the bulk of K15 will do that)
With the funky-ugly K18 below, its rare to see an 18" speaker which can play higher than Eminence's B102.
this cabinet IIRC is about one cubic foot larger in bulk than K15. I never tried it with a 15. It has a laminated
plywood curved reflector and four closet pole struts to brace its "wings".
K15 was meant for coaxial but works well with K-tube tweeter. K15 seemed finicky with which horns matched up. Bruce Edgar's 250Hz tractrix driven by JBL LE5 wasn't very good - yet a 30 inch wide by about 7" tall radial mid horn coming in at 700Hz and driven by a Symbiotik Altec compression driver sounded real good - better than I ever got from any FR. (an Audax ring radiator was used for the top) I would not relegate K15 to low xover points.
There was only one thing wrong with the speaker below (other than liking the low mass EVM18B for the best graph) - I don't like its look one bit ! -otherwise its very good. Also, maybe that aspect gave up some extra dB in the "hit" region vs Karlson's original aspect ? - whadya guyz think ????
A proper Karlsonator15 would go at least a half octave lower than K15 (and maybe in the same overall bulk - a tapped pipe
the bulk of K15 will do that)
With the funky-ugly K18 below, its rare to see an 18" speaker which can play higher than Eminence's B102.
this cabinet IIRC is about one cubic foot larger in bulk than K15. I never tried it with a 15. It has a laminated
plywood curved reflector and four closet pole struts to brace its "wings".
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if little Karlson, and elevated to ear level and the drivers pointing at the listener, then "sideways" could be OK. I don't think K15 sounds right on the floor sideways - that might work with it used like John Tucker did with the Exemplar K15 subwoofer. Stanley Clarke did it with his bass stack. I suspect the major reason of Stanley's K-rig not being written up was there's no commercial backing nor money to be made from endorsement - it should have sounded pretty good.
for K15 to sound good as a sub - I think 515 as Exemplar used or 416Z like I have with low qts and fs are needed. I got good sound on theater organ cds with a 15w per channel JC Penny receiver driving a 416Z - low tuned K15 on one channel and a K12 with weak but pretty Knight 12cx hooked to the other channel and cheap analog Behringer xover
for K15 to sound good as a sub - I think 515 as Exemplar used or 416Z like I have with low qts and fs are needed. I got good sound on theater organ cds with a 15w per channel JC Penny receiver driving a 416Z - low tuned K15 on one channel and a K12 with weak but pretty Knight 12cx hooked to the other channel and cheap analog Behringer xover
Karlson illustrated that aperture in his 1951 patent Fig.1. and Fig.2. According to the late Wayne Green,
K15's prototype was tested and finished in the summer of 1951. It made its commercial debut in the fall of
1952 at the big Hotel New Yorker audio fair. K-loading a horn is "interesting" ;^)
I think the Karlsonized violin with some experimentation would have worked pretty well.
K15's prototype was tested and finished in the summer of 1951. It made its commercial debut in the fall of
1952 at the big Hotel New Yorker audio fair. K-loading a horn is "interesting" ;^)
I think the Karlsonized violin with some experimentation would have worked pretty well.
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Kind of. Up (wing edge) and straight ahead (no lens - just the ground plane), in the case of a single wing as in Fig 1. In theory, ideal for a cabinet lying on it's side below ear level