yes Tis the Season--- I have the 7.3 en in the pensil , they're great. In my small listening room my needs are more mid range and clarity. [hearing problems] I am using my hi rez computer files, thru a decent dac to a 3 watt tube amp I would like to build a cabinet for the 11ms . Large desktop or stand mount speakers are my preference . I need direction? thanks
I started with the idea of making a singel fullrange driver, to see if its something for me, and from there taking the fast way.
Plan was using a seas 10" paper woofer, they are very light and fast.
But... i really like the aplairs 11ms... they give a big sound.
They sound very easy with a better low end then many drivers I heard from this size. Maby some accutons can dig deeper, but at a very different price point.
So... at the moment I don't see a reason to go fast. For bigger sound, I'm thinking of doubling the drivers. 2 x alpair 11ms per side equells a 8" driver. But first enjoy the nostromo's
Plan was using a seas 10" paper woofer, they are very light and fast.
But... i really like the aplairs 11ms... they give a big sound.
They sound very easy with a better low end then many drivers I heard from this size. Maby some accutons can dig deeper, but at a very different price point.
So... at the moment I don't see a reason to go fast. For bigger sound, I'm thinking of doubling the drivers. 2 x alpair 11ms per side equells a 8" driver. But first enjoy the nostromo's
A dedicated bass driver will go lower with more authority. I haven’t heard the smaller MS, but i do have the A11ms. I strongly suspect the smaller driver will do mid/top better.
Everytime i swith from the A11ms (A10.3eN/A10PeN. A6.2MeN, Eikona, more…) to the big WAW (2 x A12PWeN + a7.3eN or 2 x SDX7eN + A7.3eN) i am reminded what low bass and freeing the mid-tweeter from bass duties bring to the party. If one has the reach to live with the typically much more complex and more costly, done right WAW is certainly a very good approach to getting more out of your FR system.
2 FRs run in (physical) parallel will suffer from at least some HF combing, the bigger the driver lower in frequency the combing starts. That said i do have a sceme forming in my head for a 4 x (3-4”) drivers, with the 2nd and 3rd+4th coming in at lower frequencies. My biggest concern is that the impedance will rise from that of the driver at HF to 4 x that at LF (with a 4 ohm driver, system impedance would be 16Ω). Recent listing to Alpair 6.2MeN has me thinking again… would need a 14.4 liter miniOnken enclosure or a quad Frugel-Horn Lite. Makes me wonder if we will see an A6ms or A5ms?
This for the A7ms (or other 4”), but it is the same arrangment one would use for the FH-Lite (or XL). The interal vertical panels (as theoretically could the horizontal panrl (“top”) could be removed (but you would still need a brace in at least the front sections).
dave
Everytime i swith from the A11ms (A10.3eN/A10PeN. A6.2MeN, Eikona, more…) to the big WAW (2 x A12PWeN + a7.3eN or 2 x SDX7eN + A7.3eN) i am reminded what low bass and freeing the mid-tweeter from bass duties bring to the party. If one has the reach to live with the typically much more complex and more costly, done right WAW is certainly a very good approach to getting more out of your FR system.
2 FRs run in (physical) parallel will suffer from at least some HF combing, the bigger the driver lower in frequency the combing starts. That said i do have a sceme forming in my head for a 4 x (3-4”) drivers, with the 2nd and 3rd+4th coming in at lower frequencies. My biggest concern is that the impedance will rise from that of the driver at HF to 4 x that at LF (with a 4 ohm driver, system impedance would be 16Ω). Recent listing to Alpair 6.2MeN has me thinking again… would need a 14.4 liter miniOnken enclosure or a quad Frugel-Horn Lite. Makes me wonder if we will see an A6ms or A5ms?
This for the A7ms (or other 4”), but it is the same arrangment one would use for the FH-Lite (or XL). The interal vertical panels (as theoretically could the horizontal panrl (“top”) could be removed (but you would still need a brace in at least the front sections).
dave
The Ellipsa has its own thread: P10-hifi Alpair 7.3eN + SDX7eN WAW (aka FAST)
The A12pWeN are in a Woden ML-TL, the SDX7eN are sealed. The A7.3eN is in each case in its own midTL. The MTM has a tiny edge over the Elipsa but is prettier, my plan is to get them back into the main system. The MTM does have an optional passisve XO which is well done.
dave
It depends…
The room always plays a big role in the bass, it dominates below 250-300 Hz or so (depends on room size). The smaller the room, the more problems with bass. With a big room more needed to fill it, and bass issues move lower in frequency.
How loud do you play your music?
What kind of bass do you really need? Many think of bass as what is termed upper bass (80-160 Hz), few speakers actually do low bass (20-40 Hz). The FH-Lite does a bit better than the 1st, but with such authority that you think the fundemental is there. Is that enuff?
And what about the plus of maintaining sonic consistency across the spectrum that a single amp/single speaker does? With any XO you make compromises, even if at WAW frequencies many of them go away.
What kind of budget do you have?
What are your inclinations? There are so many possible ways to do things, there is no right answer.
I did this document for those using 2 drivers: http://www.planet10-hifi.com/downloads/Dual-Driver-Wiring.pdf
dave
The room always plays a big role in the bass, it dominates below 250-300 Hz or so (depends on room size). The smaller the room, the more problems with bass. With a big room more needed to fill it, and bass issues move lower in frequency.
How loud do you play your music?
What kind of bass do you really need? Many think of bass as what is termed upper bass (80-160 Hz), few speakers actually do low bass (20-40 Hz). The FH-Lite does a bit better than the 1st, but with such authority that you think the fundemental is there. Is that enuff?
And what about the plus of maintaining sonic consistency across the spectrum that a single amp/single speaker does? With any XO you make compromises, even if at WAW frequencies many of them go away.
What kind of budget do you have?
What are your inclinations? There are so many possible ways to do things, there is no right answer.
I did this document for those using 2 drivers: http://www.planet10-hifi.com/downloads/Dual-Driver-Wiring.pdf
dave
Dave, I think you nailed it for me , [HOW MUCH BASS DO YOU NEED?] the 7.3 en's in the Pensil are close. I've been thinking of the frugal horn design for some time. Do the 7MS match up with the FH Lite?? The two driver wiring diagram link [post 388] Is that what you have figured will work with the stacked FH's ?
For the Ellipsa, I can see the the slotted vent looks like it has something in them, is that foam covering the vent (the grey color thing)?
Yes, a plug of foam recovered from computer repair parts packaging, IIRC approx 1" (?) thick. This is a technique that has incorporated in several of Dave's designs for fine tuning - perhaps even in the A12PW/A7.3 MTMs? Hard to remember, there were so many builds with several iterations along the way.
Hey Dave,
Thanx for your response!
So 2 drivers does have some issues. Brands like omega have made FR speakers with 2 drivers per side, and put the driver on a wide baffle but not in a straight verticall line. So one driver is more to the left and one is more to the right.
I do think in a fast design, the ms7 will be better because of a wider sound spread. On the other hand, the ms11 will not have to work as hard.
The MS11 are placed closer to each other than my previous speakers, with almost no toe-in. For me, this was the solution to fix the narrower sweetspot, than the fountek cd1.0 tweeters in my XTZ's gave me.
If I read correctly in this forum, 5,5 liter, closed box, with some damping will give the ms11 a second order cross at 90hz. If I would go for a Fast design, would you advise to use the acoustic crossover, of still use a Cap, to bring the cross to, lets say 250hz?
I was looking at the seas A26RE4, because of its naturall roll of at 1500 hz, so easier to build a crossover for. And sensitivity matches the ms11. The goal would be to use as minimum components as possible, to keep as close to the MS11 filosophy as possible.
Thanx for your response!
So 2 drivers does have some issues. Brands like omega have made FR speakers with 2 drivers per side, and put the driver on a wide baffle but not in a straight verticall line. So one driver is more to the left and one is more to the right.
I do think in a fast design, the ms7 will be better because of a wider sound spread. On the other hand, the ms11 will not have to work as hard.
The MS11 are placed closer to each other than my previous speakers, with almost no toe-in. For me, this was the solution to fix the narrower sweetspot, than the fountek cd1.0 tweeters in my XTZ's gave me.
If I read correctly in this forum, 5,5 liter, closed box, with some damping will give the ms11 a second order cross at 90hz. If I would go for a Fast design, would you advise to use the acoustic crossover, of still use a Cap, to bring the cross to, lets say 250hz?
I was looking at the seas A26RE4, because of its naturall roll of at 1500 hz, so easier to build a crossover for. And sensitivity matches the ms11. The goal would be to use as minimum components as possible, to keep as close to the MS11 filosophy as possible.
Every loudspeaker has its compromises. An extra driver brings more cone area to the party* (but not lower), but also HF issues, a filter can help there, but its a filter (admittedly at a low frequency). The HF issues get smaller as you get further away — why for near field use a FR has an even bigger advantage over a cone+dome.
*(either a 6 dB lift or an excursion reduction (1/4) below the filter corner).
Using the sealed box as part of the filter fixes the XO frequency. 2nd order means no XO in front of the FR for maximum purity. Add a woofer with a 2nd order XO. It is not practical to try to do a passive XO here. Just add a plate amp to the woofer. If its XO is 4th order you can just live with it (given room dominates at these frequencies it might work better), or add an additional 2nd order to the HP. An additional HP filter should also let you play louder. This is best described as FR + (sub)Woofers.
A true WAW moves the XO up to say 150-450 Hz or so. We are trading purity/seemlessness (by having FR do more of the spectrum) for better midTop (FR working less in the bass greatly reducing excursion), greater level capabilities. Most of the issues with XOs go away as you go low. But it is much harder to do with passive parts, than to bi-amp. And sometimes more expensive.
Each has its own set of compromises. But this is diy, so trying what you can, what tickles your fancy, is all on th etable. As a friend’s bumper sticker said, it is hard to only have one cookie.
Have fun.Learn. Find out what works for you.
dave