hi everyone
I'm looking for a very good woofer that can go low in a enclosure of 150liter of even smaller.
I was planning on using my eminence omega pro 15 but they dont go low enough in 150l so im looking for alternatives:
I require about 98db eff driver to mate with my pr170mo and hivi rt2h ribbons
so far, the best via simulation is the:
Beyma 15b100
I wonder if im missing many other otions
any help would be great
thanks
I'm looking for a very good woofer that can go low in a enclosure of 150liter of even smaller.
I was planning on using my eminence omega pro 15 but they dont go low enough in 150l so im looking for alternatives:
I require about 98db eff driver to mate with my pr170mo and hivi rt2h ribbons
so far, the best via simulation is the:
Beyma 15b100
I wonder if im missing many other otions
any help would be great
thanks
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To get ~98 dB eff. [nearly 4%] down to 30 Hz takes a large cab; ~94 dB is a realistic goal: Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
GM
GM
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The Audax pr170mo looks like 95db sensitivity over a normal frequency range with a crossover in Xsim. Have you run sims or made in-room measurements?
Room Bass Gain must also be factored in. Jeff Bagby's free sim tools will allow you to combine a T/S parameter driver box simulation with room effects.
Baffle Edge Diffraction Simulator
By Jeff Bagby Version 1.20
To get a room-merged FRD file, move the Beyma 15B100R T/S parameters to Jeff's
Frequency Response Modeler
A combined 15B100R + pr170mo simulation will probably meet your goals.
Room Bass Gain must also be factored in. Jeff Bagby's free sim tools will allow you to combine a T/S parameter driver box simulation with room effects.
Baffle Edge Diffraction Simulator
By Jeff Bagby Version 1.20
To get a room-merged FRD file, move the Beyma 15B100R T/S parameters to Jeff's
Frequency Response Modeler
A combined 15B100R + pr170mo simulation will probably meet your goals.
Hmmmmm. Alternatives?
The B&C 15PS100 and the 15NBX100 can meet part of your criteria if going for 4ohm versions, which will net you some more sound per voltage output, not sure if that would be interesting.
Should be possible to get flat to 40hz in 126 liters if you get the numbers right. Flat is not optimal in a room though. I have 4 x Fane 15-400 which are cheap, but adequate for my use, 129 liter including port tuned to 27hz, cones hardly move at all, measured +/- 2db from 14hz to 90hz in my listening position a week ago, with no eq. Sounds fantastic on organ music.
The B&C 15PS100 and the 15NBX100 can meet part of your criteria if going for 4ohm versions, which will net you some more sound per voltage output, not sure if that would be interesting.
Should be possible to get flat to 40hz in 126 liters if you get the numbers right. Flat is not optimal in a room though. I have 4 x Fane 15-400 which are cheap, but adequate for my use, 129 liter including port tuned to 27hz, cones hardly move at all, measured +/- 2db from 14hz to 90hz in my listening position a week ago, with no eq. Sounds fantastic on organ music.
You may achieve your goal with 2 x 12" in parallel, and in more box volume.
200 liters with a 100 liter box or compartment for each driver, connect the drivers in parallel you are not too far off.
200 liters with a 100 liter box or compartment for each driver, connect the drivers in parallel you are not too far off.
Sorry, impossible...
Your "requirements" aren't realistic / possible. Simple as that.
It would all be clear to you if you actually understood the physics.
Woofer efficiency is governed by: eta_0 = (rho_0/c) · (Sd^2/Mms) · (Fs/Qes)
and low frequency extension is tied to (Fs/Qes).
Also, the required Bass Reflex box volume for a given F3 is approximately:
Vb = rho_0 · c^2 / (2Pi · F3)^2 · Sd^2 / Mms
What this all means is that once you set the required F3 AND efficiency, the Vb is inevitably determined also.
In practice, for a 98dB 15" woofer and an F3 = 40Hz, the calculations give Vb > 250L.
See the attached Excel sheet.
Marco
Your "requirements" aren't realistic / possible. Simple as that.
It would all be clear to you if you actually understood the physics.
Woofer efficiency is governed by: eta_0 = (rho_0/c) · (Sd^2/Mms) · (Fs/Qes)
and low frequency extension is tied to (Fs/Qes).
Also, the required Bass Reflex box volume for a given F3 is approximately:
Vb = rho_0 · c^2 / (2Pi · F3)^2 · Sd^2 / Mms
What this all means is that once you set the required F3 AND efficiency, the Vb is inevitably determined also.
In practice, for a 98dB 15" woofer and an F3 = 40Hz, the calculations give Vb > 250L.
See the attached Excel sheet.
Marco
A single 15" getting 98db/2,83v is also a bit unrealistic unless it's made for high efficiency and 4 ohms impedance. 18" is also difficult to get that sensitivity, not many units for bass that give more than 96db/w in real life.
ok
since the audax mid is around 95/96db, im fine with 95db woofers
Ive decided to keep the omega pro 15 and build a 200l enclosure and hope room gain will help out
thanks everyone!
since the audax mid is around 95/96db, im fine with 95db woofers
Ive decided to keep the omega pro 15 and build a 200l enclosure and hope room gain will help out
thanks everyone!
I have the same drivers and I have been sitting on the fence on what to build. Tapped horns would be fun but then I thought about reasonably bass reflex. The high aspect of the Onken boxes looked good. Then I saw the huge Heco 3 way, baffle loading and floor facing ports.
My current idea is a Heco derivative but with a slotload port facing the floor. Beyma 6.5" midrange and a Beyma slotloaded horn tweeter. Active crossovers.
My current idea is a Heco derivative but with a slotload port facing the floor. Beyma 6.5" midrange and a Beyma slotloaded horn tweeter. Active crossovers.
OK... I am going to upset the apple cart ... well a bit...
You can get close to the 150 liter - 97 - 98 dbw goal with a 15".
It's how loud you need to play which shades the picture.
One BIG assumption here.... and that is this is a residential "Hi-Fi" application that does not need to play stupid loud... say above 116 db at a meter. Typical passive crossover.
Enter the Eminence Kappa lite 3015 Neo. Have worked with a few of these. Tend to have an FS between 43.4 & 44. 6 Hz after reasonable break in. QE and QM are spot on spec.
QTS has averaged around .352. All amazingly close to spec. Xmax is around 6 MM peak. VAS around 163 Liter.
Assuming a typical QTS' of .375 (RG = .5 ohms) your on baffle efficiency is right at 97 dbw, really. Down at 200 hz, not up at where you can't use it 1,500 Hz.
Using Thiele QT based port box calculations, and tuning the box at 40 Hz you can get there in 150 liters net. Minimum 6" port. 8-11" long depending on box losses which are difficult to predict. F3 will be at 40 Hz.
Dead flat to 1,200 hz. Up 3.5 DB at 1,800 hz and dies after that. Just as shown at the Eminence site. No, I have nothing to do with or for Eminence. Trust me, they make a few stinkers like most everybody else, but not this particular driver. Simple to use and requires no heroic low pass crossovers to use.
You can get close to the 150 liter - 97 - 98 dbw goal with a 15".
It's how loud you need to play which shades the picture.
One BIG assumption here.... and that is this is a residential "Hi-Fi" application that does not need to play stupid loud... say above 116 db at a meter. Typical passive crossover.
Enter the Eminence Kappa lite 3015 Neo. Have worked with a few of these. Tend to have an FS between 43.4 & 44. 6 Hz after reasonable break in. QE and QM are spot on spec.
QTS has averaged around .352. All amazingly close to spec. Xmax is around 6 MM peak. VAS around 163 Liter.
Assuming a typical QTS' of .375 (RG = .5 ohms) your on baffle efficiency is right at 97 dbw, really. Down at 200 hz, not up at where you can't use it 1,500 Hz.
Using Thiele QT based port box calculations, and tuning the box at 40 Hz you can get there in 150 liters net. Minimum 6" port. 8-11" long depending on box losses which are difficult to predict. F3 will be at 40 Hz.
Dead flat to 1,200 hz. Up 3.5 DB at 1,800 hz and dies after that. Just as shown at the Eminence site. No, I have nothing to do with or for Eminence. Trust me, they make a few stinkers like most everybody else, but not this particular driver. Simple to use and requires no heroic low pass crossovers to use.
Along the lines of John Busch's recommended Kappa lite
The 15 below uses Kappa Lite parts but adds a longer stroke surround/spider and longer voice coil to a stouter cone. It is generally used with either a 115 liter (4 cu. ft.) enclosure ported for 40 Hz or by increasing the size to 170 liters (6 cu. ft.) that changes the tuning to 32Hz so good down to 30Hz. It is a 6 ohm driver which is a bit...different but the sensitivity at 2.83V is 99dB--or around 97 to 98dB at one watt/one meter. Very light neodymium magnet which cuts a lot of weight.
Denovo Audio MBM-15lx midbass module
Here is a video of one in operation, that puppy has some serious Xmax for a "PA driver". Just another option for your quest.
YouTube
The 15 below uses Kappa Lite parts but adds a longer stroke surround/spider and longer voice coil to a stouter cone. It is generally used with either a 115 liter (4 cu. ft.) enclosure ported for 40 Hz or by increasing the size to 170 liters (6 cu. ft.) that changes the tuning to 32Hz so good down to 30Hz. It is a 6 ohm driver which is a bit...different but the sensitivity at 2.83V is 99dB--or around 97 to 98dB at one watt/one meter. Very light neodymium magnet which cuts a lot of weight.
Denovo Audio MBM-15lx midbass module
Here is a video of one in operation, that puppy has some serious Xmax for a "PA driver". Just another option for your quest.
YouTube
Not sure if the cart is that upset.
Bass from a 15" is still pretty much 96db/2.83v.
Unless you have some further corrections? I did enter the values you provided.
Edit:
Something like the 4 ohm verion of Faital 15PR400 gets 98.6db/2.83v in the same box at 40hz, but that's only because it gets more power.
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Kaffiman... Thanks for the sims....
My point was to offer an off the shelf alternative as close to spec as possible initially posted. 15" class woofer, 150 Liter enclosure, simple reflex loading, 98 db intrinsic efficiency capable of an f3 of 40 hz. Under $300 US.
The 3014 is 97.4 dbw (3.48%). Thiele QT alignment shows it will meet the 40 hz f3 in 150 liters, ported. Needs to be tuned to 41 Hz- 43 Hz give or take box losses.
So the apple cart is not perfectly level, but the 3014 is a viable, realizable possibility. Add in it's flat response to over 1K and light weight and things could be a lot worse! And not bad for 30% below budget.
My point was to offer an off the shelf alternative as close to spec as possible initially posted. 15" class woofer, 150 Liter enclosure, simple reflex loading, 98 db intrinsic efficiency capable of an f3 of 40 hz. Under $300 US.
The 3014 is 97.4 dbw (3.48%). Thiele QT alignment shows it will meet the 40 hz f3 in 150 liters, ported. Needs to be tuned to 41 Hz- 43 Hz give or take box losses.
So the apple cart is not perfectly level, but the 3014 is a viable, realizable possibility. Add in it's flat response to over 1K and light weight and things could be a lot worse! And not bad for 30% below budget.
Response is more or less identical with my Fane 15-400 in the same box, the Fane has 5mm xmax, the Eminence 5.9mm. Price of the Fane is about half what the Eminence costs.
For in-home use, I would argue that it does not matter, none of these drivers will be likely to exceed or possibly even go anywhere near xmax in their lifetime. And difference in sound quality would be negligible.
I am very happy with my Fane 15-400, I admit 4 of them in house is a bit overkill, I still have not gone past the -20db setting on my amp, well except one church organ recording where I go to -18db when the house is evacuated.
Edit:
Do note my boxes are smaller though, and tuned lower, 129liters each, sans material.
Edit2:
The Omega 15 PRO also simulate well in that same 173 liter box, and is also a drop-in replacement.
Personally I would tune the box lower though, but since OP specified 40hz I guess he's happy with that...?
For in-home use, I would argue that it does not matter, none of these drivers will be likely to exceed or possibly even go anywhere near xmax in their lifetime. And difference in sound quality would be negligible.
I am very happy with my Fane 15-400, I admit 4 of them in house is a bit overkill, I still have not gone past the -20db setting on my amp, well except one church organ recording where I go to -18db when the house is evacuated.
Edit:
Do note my boxes are smaller though, and tuned lower, 129liters each, sans material.
Edit2:
The Omega 15 PRO also simulate well in that same 173 liter box, and is also a drop-in replacement.
Personally I would tune the box lower though, but since OP specified 40hz I guess he's happy with that...?
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I might confirm this (or not) : planning with a 18" woofer of 97dB (specs), according to Thiele-Small and WinISD averages this rather at around ~95dB (which is still acceptable for me as a real value). Huge box and while woofer is capable of ~1KHz too I'm going to cut it with 24dB/oct at 125-150Hz so that very little smooth lift in the lower midrange region doesn't play anymore.