Wow, you are really a piece of work for a moderator and retailer!
I never stated "PA sound." If you don't know the difference between live sound and PA sound, you should not be in the audio business.
It must really kill you that your enable mentor (Bud Purvine) loves the AN 15 driver. I guess there is no accounting for his tastes either?
besides the heavy 15" coax I mentioned for $99 (which could be run with a single cap as DD did for ~"FR" tone), the $50 woofer I mentioned could be used in reflex as basis for a cheap multi-way or helper woofer - maybe "FAST" (?) Its got 5mm xmax, advertised 0.38 qts - stamped basket, 3" coil. That doesn't guarantee "punch" - (my 15tbx40 with horn on top and 250W didn't seem to have much) -good mids and highs will help.
P Audio E15-350N 15" Neodymium Bass Speaker
Specs http://www.paudioeurope.com/pdf/E15_350N.pdf
P Audio E15-350N 15" Neodymium Bass Speaker
Specs http://www.paudioeurope.com/pdf/E15_350N.pdf
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I believe the Betsy K's are 110 o 120 / pair, so maybe $55 each. TBs are like $95 each. The Betsy's had some sort of disclaimer at the bottom of the page about cranking them up, pounding them with high wattage, etc. and that the buyer should look elsewhere in this case - I took it to mean they were talking to me, running them from a solid state receiver (instead of a tube amp).
I'm not trying to come in at $499.99 all in for these speakers, but keeping it close would be best... Hence watching the price of the drivers, since I need 2 FRs and 2 helper woofers, that already limits them to <$100 ea, or so depending on individual choices. 🙂
Horizons - I'm certain Dave means well, everyone does have their own tastes including you and I. The AN stuff would be much more tempting at a lower pricepoint. $300 for FRs, and I'd still be looking for big helper woofers, plus passive crossover bits, wood, etc. You said your peerless 12" woofers + the AN15s are plenty punchy, but I have no way of knowing how they align with my tastes... (short of building them!)
This is a big part of why, for the woofers at least, I believe in going big or going home - may has well have lots of extra unneeded headroom in the bass dept. than be pounding a little 6/8/10, or even 12" speaker to death. Hence my fascination with using an 18" woofer - how could it not be "enough"? 🙂
The AN12 freq plot looks a bit rough-ish too, similar I guess to the 12lta and Fane, maybe just the consequence of a large cone. The Alpair 10.3 and 12p plots by comparison are rather flat. But, that's no account of what sounds best to your ear!
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/an12classicspecs.jpg
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Freddi - thanks for the links, that's certainly a reasonable price. I'll play around with it in winISD tonight to see what it does.
RE: "Punch", still after what exactly will maximize this factor.
Why do you think your 15tbx40/horn combo didn't have much punch? A quick look at the specs for that 15tbx40 would have made me think it capable of a pretty big punch...? Wrong cabinet/alignment for the specs?
RE: "Punch", still after what exactly will maximize this factor.
Why do you think your 15tbx40/horn combo didn't have much punch? A quick look at the specs for that 15tbx40 would have made me think it capable of a pretty big punch...? Wrong cabinet/alignment for the specs?
my interpretation of punch comes from using Karlson enclosures - so perhaps the Onkenish vent RCA-Fan V-vent box was a bit too neutral or didn't have a proper blend of the horn - - - despite the powerful B&C motor, I thought at the time the moving mass of this speaker class (~140g) is a bit much for midrange duty
I overlaid the specs of that woofer over its published curve
http://i.imgur.com/bDBJPBR.png
I overlaid the specs of that woofer over its published curve
http://i.imgur.com/bDBJPBR.png
Look at a K15's < 500 Hz response, BPs tend to 'kick like a mule' to the point of adding too much 'color' for me, especially with low Qt drivers/high DF amps [typical SS], though good for acoustic BSC if used well away from any boundaries like outdoors or on a stand out in the room..........
GM
GM
K15 with a light woofer (M151) seems to have 1/3 the cone excursion (20vrms - 37Hz) of a reflex the size of its back chamber and same system tuning (mid-high 40's) - - whether that holds with most 15 = ?
back to a 12FR as direct radator - would expect AN with whizzer to sound kinda rough - not sure about Classic (looks rough enough) - Fane 12 might refine with eNabL - especially the double whizzer which has a "papery" coloration. (it is made of paper - lol) P10's system should be refined.
back to a 12FR as direct radator - would expect AN with whizzer to sound kinda rough - not sure about Classic (looks rough enough) - Fane 12 might refine with eNabL - especially the double whizzer which has a "papery" coloration. (it is made of paper - lol) P10's system should be refined.
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Regarding Betsy - I would also check out Randy at Caintuck Audio. He will give you honest advice without bashing his competition.
Caintuck Audio Loudspeakers
Caintuck Audio Loudspeakers
Seems reasonable for any driver if each of the three chambers are a ~2:1 ratio to mimic an [inverse] expo expansion. Final tuning of course is done with the vent [K slot].
Yeah, once I became convinced I could 'improve' drivers [i.e make them sound better to me, which isn't necessarily the same thing]; in every case I've had to either stiffen or weaken whizzers or just removed them to a greater or lesser extent depending on the app.
GM
My response was basically WRT Randy; haven't paid any attention/auditioned to his speaker system, but do know that just a high Qt driver by itself driven with a high output impedance can do a surprising amount of [mid] bass when optimized in room, especially small ones.
GM
GM
Yep, the Betsy does not like to get pounded like most smaller FR, but as long as you do the helper woofer and cross over 200~400 Hz they will work just fine. Maybe the best deal at the moment is the Mark Audio 10M from Madisound at $85.00. It has respectable Xmax (7mm 1 way), and designed as a long throw driver, but you should do the same cross over. You could do the 10M and dual Emi Alpha 15a and still be in budget.
OB not an option currently, given my living room. Perhaps one day.. I'd love to try it someday.
Dual Alpha 15s? Well maybe if they were 4ohm, in series with each other, but all I see is an 8 ohm option, so no bueno. Two 15s is even more cone area than an 18", this I like, but they'd have to be cheaper 15's (and 4ohm) to be within the budget.
Something like these could work (a pair in series per channel), in a sealed box I guess (and foam surrounds, yuck!):
Goldwood GW-215/4 15" OEM Woofer 4 Ohm
I was sketching up the P10 MarKen10.3 to see how it looked and how I might stack it on a helper woofer, will post some screenshots soon.
Agreed on the 10m/10.3 Alpair being a deal at $85, just wondered how that larger Tang Band compared for $95. Granted, having lots of options already out there for the Alpairs is pretty handy... Haven't seen all that much for that TB 8"... I did see an MLTL design somewhere here though at least.
Dual Alpha 15s? Well maybe if they were 4ohm, in series with each other, but all I see is an 8 ohm option, so no bueno. Two 15s is even more cone area than an 18", this I like, but they'd have to be cheaper 15's (and 4ohm) to be within the budget.
Something like these could work (a pair in series per channel), in a sealed box I guess (and foam surrounds, yuck!):
Goldwood GW-215/4 15" OEM Woofer 4 Ohm
I was sketching up the P10 MarKen10.3 to see how it looked and how I might stack it on a helper woofer, will post some screenshots soon.
I have only talked about AN drivers i have had experience with. 3 different stamped frame ones that are now discontinued which were not all that good, and a set of Cast 10” ferrites that showed potential but were, IMO, overpriced. I have stated that i’d love to hear the current Cast 8”, the big 15s, and i’d also like to hear the 3”.
dave
The mockups are a bit out of control, but it's fun/interesting to see all the designs side by side for sense of scale.
Current favorite is on the left, a 10.3 alpair in a MarKen box, on top of a PRV (18sw1000) 18" in a sealed 8 ft^3 box. Not too fancy, but figured no sense in getting crazy with angles or anything just yet.
Current favorite is on the left, a 10.3 alpair in a MarKen box, on top of a PRV (18sw1000) 18" in a sealed 8 ft^3 box. Not too fancy, but figured no sense in getting crazy with angles or anything just yet.
Attachments
Goldwood's GW1858 will go down to about 31Hz usable in an H-baffle - they're about $180 these days for a pair - the cheapest 8 to put on top would be BG20 (could be de-whizzered and add a helper tweeter) - Markaudio 10 with a good passive network should work - there's mild cavity resonance in a typical H-baffle so perhaps a flat or U baffle with shallow wings would make the transition better to the FR.
you've sure drawn a load of options 😀
DIY speakers, AN Super 8 over 18" H-Frames. Mingus Big Band - YouTube
you've sure drawn a load of options 😀
DIY speakers, AN Super 8 over 18" H-Frames. Mingus Big Band - YouTube
For sure; at a glance it looks like about a 90 Hz/f6 plus whatever the room, amp may do and didn't see any performance claims to dispute, so the small baffle and consequent 'disappearing act' apparently are its main allures, offering a 'sub' to handle the bottom end. Works for me anyway. 😉
GM
It really does need an OB, but i do have a couple of these surplus that could be had for less.
dave
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