I have a FAST on the books with 2 12” Fosters + (tentatively) an A6.2p on the top. A larger FR could be eaily substituted… as well as using modern woofers.
dave
dave
Thanks, a ~15 Hz/f6 shift up in the mid-bass is a bunch, makes the 10.3 a bit too 'polite' for me without some horn gain.
GM
if the OP could land a pair of Altec 511 cheap, then a makeshift La Scala could be built - that would have some punch
Mid horn drivers $80 D250X $40 each Selenium D250-X GW 1" Phenolic Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI
Woofer hor drivers $260 Eminence CB15 $130 each Eminence Legend CB158 15" Bass Guitar Speaker 300W 8 Ohm
Tweeter horn drivers $60 --Eminence ASS1001 compression driver $30 ea. Eminence ASD1001 1" HF Titanium Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI
Tweeter horns - less than $20 a pair
Crossover could build a Klipsch Type A sans autoformer - maybe $50 for both
About $470 already without midhorn or plywood - there's probably a cheaper woofer deal somewhere
a pair of used Peavey FH1 would be ~ the same as LS and better braced
would rock on AC/DC - including the residual cowbell ring ;^)
Mid horn drivers $80 D250X $40 each Selenium D250-X GW 1" Phenolic Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI
Woofer hor drivers $260 Eminence CB15 $130 each Eminence Legend CB158 15" Bass Guitar Speaker 300W 8 Ohm
Tweeter horn drivers $60 --Eminence ASS1001 compression driver $30 ea. Eminence ASD1001 1" HF Titanium Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI
Tweeter horns - less than $20 a pair
Crossover could build a Klipsch Type A sans autoformer - maybe $50 for both
About $470 already without midhorn or plywood - there's probably a cheaper woofer deal somewhere
a pair of used Peavey FH1 would be ~ the same as LS and better braced
would rock on AC/DC - including the residual cowbell ring ;^)
007,
If I was you, I would first build a pair of Mini-onkens with a pair of Alpair 10.3. Ok, they wouldn't provide much 'kick' alone, but they would allow to enjoy some nice tunes by the time you manage to save some bucks for some decent woofers. Then, you go and buy a pair of Eminence Deltalite 2512 woofers and build a DTQWT, and put Minionkens on top of them...
With that solution you could be happy in long-term. Otherwise if you build a BiB or something else with 12lta-s, you may be happy for a moment with 'oomph' and 'kick', but long term, you won't have the overall sound quality that 10.3 can provide. So, don't rush it-think long term...
If I was you, I would first build a pair of Mini-onkens with a pair of Alpair 10.3. Ok, they wouldn't provide much 'kick' alone, but they would allow to enjoy some nice tunes by the time you manage to save some bucks for some decent woofers. Then, you go and buy a pair of Eminence Deltalite 2512 woofers and build a DTQWT, and put Minionkens on top of them...
With that solution you could be happy in long-term. Otherwise if you build a BiB or something else with 12lta-s, you may be happy for a moment with 'oomph' and 'kick', but long term, you won't have the overall sound quality that 10.3 can provide. So, don't rush it-think long term...
I don't see how since Bell Labs measured 10 AW peaks/250-500 Hz octave alone from a 75 pc. orchestra in their anechoic chamber. Above 500 Hz it maxed out at 2 AW, petering off to 0.3 AW average above 4 kHz.
I don't know how it was measured, but do know that a few classical CDs have [clipped] +30 dB peaks centered at 300 Hz, so wondering if this is what you're referring to.
Regardless, better to err on the side of caution when designing for high SPL.
GM
Pretty much any modern, relatively cheap DJ party speaker should suffice and at $500/pr., buying decent used PA is an option, though some active or passive EQ will be required for small room apps.
GM
I did not want to hijack this topic, but since the Alpair 10.3 was discussed, has anyone tried the Tone Tubby Humboldt Alnico 8"? The data and graph look promising. I'm a fan of the smaller 6" to 8" drivers (in a OB/FAST), and currently use Alpair 10p and Emi Alpha 15A. I do have hemp cones in my guitar amp and like the clarity that hemp has.
(found some 15" on sale $50 each - qt advertised 0.38, 5mm overhang, 3" coil - could be a reflex clunker or LS woof). Jack Sheldon's old M&K album (great on CD) "Playin' It Straight" has excellent dynamic range on his trumpet. Live trombone seem really powerful with good players.
some of those "kabuki" speakers had clever cost effective engineering in their drivers - some woofers had nice sound
some of those "kabuki" speakers had clever cost effective engineering in their drivers - some woofers had nice sound
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GM - Ouch, but I was sort of waiting for someone to say that... I've never been too impressed with how any of those setups sound, despite my apparent disregard for hi-fi.. 🙂
I take it my budget doesn't buy any of the big Altec stuff you seem to be into?
Freddi - which 15 are you talking about? Those kabuki speakers you refered to certainly look the part, haha - but way complicated and too many drivers...
I just hooked a set of Yamaha 3 ways (model NS-6490) for a reference point - they are much crisper and clearer in the mids and highs vs. the Fishers, but get a bit harsh up at the top when you crank it up.
NS-6490 - Specs - Yamaha - United States
And while they seem to get down pretty low for being basically a large bookshelf speaker, don't have the punch that the Fishers do (as expected, given the smaller 8" woofers). There was audible distortion (exceeding xmax I'm guessing) when I cranked them up to 11 side by side with the Fishers (which were not distorting yet).
Somewhat comically, I liked the sound best with a Fisher on one channel and a Yamaha on the other - collectively the sound was pretty balanced, with one speaker making up the deficiencies of the other.
--So I can appreciate the nicer mids and highs of the Yamaha, maybe with the highs toned down just slightly, and with a much bigger woofer for punch.
Thus, what I'm aiming to build is something that would have bigger low end than the Fishers and have the clear mids/highs of the Yamahas (but in a single driver!)
Edit: those yamahas are cheaper than i thought they were, and couple of electrolytic caps on the connection plate is it for crossover duty
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Looks like the oft-used Foster horn tweeter — quite decent — a mediocre closed back midrange, and i bet if you pulled the woofer it will have a small magnet which would give a hi Q underdamped tuning with a largish bump 80-160 hz (ie upper bass)
dave
GPA's closest replacement to my woofers is around $765 IIRC and even then it's a ferrite Vs mine's at least several times more expensive AlNiCo motor, so not a fair comparison. Most folks use the smaller motor version that's around $525 IIRC plus tax, shipping of course.
Anyway, guessing you'd have at least $2 k/pr invested when all was said and done. The more you post though, the more it 'sounds' like you're going to need at least a two way with a big horn as the cone/domes that can handle high SPL at low distortion are quite pricy and why four or five ways are required to severely limit the BW when using consumer grade drivers. At this point, inexpensive driver 'infinite' arrays + small subwoofer array arranged around the room may be your best overall option.
GM
Anyway, guessing you'd have at least $2 k/pr invested when all was said and done. The more you post though, the more it 'sounds' like you're going to need at least a two way with a big horn as the cone/domes that can handle high SPL at low distortion are quite pricy and why four or five ways are required to severely limit the BW when using consumer grade drivers. At this point, inexpensive driver 'infinite' arrays + small subwoofer array arranged around the room may be your best overall option.
GM
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I haven’t paid much attention to Tine Tubby since getting a really nasty email from them when i suggested that if they used their favoured receipe (which they published) then there hemp-cone drivers had no hemp in them at all — more or les sconfirming my assertion.
Louis at Omega’s response was to stop calling his tone tubby sourced drivers hemp and switch to Misco to make his drivers.
dave
My advice is to stay the course. Smaller drivers are good for female vocals and guitars but once you hear a big, full, and rich sound (that only large drivers can provide) you will never go back. Drawbacks? Sure, I have some beaming but my speakers sound more like live sound that almost anything else I have heard at any audio show.
Besides beaming they lack fidelity in the midrange & top,
Most live sound with PAs sounds like crap, but if you like it i guess there is no accounting for taste.
dave
Maybe.. doesn't have a make on the back, looks like cheap plastic junk. Think it came from a cheaper smaller fisher speaker. Mid is indeed a closed back design. And woofer has a pretty modest magnet/motor assembly and feels pretty lightly sprung. But I wasn't planning on reusing any of the Fisher parts, these get moved to garage duty after new ones get built.
Hmm... I was sort of afraid of getting to that conclusion, though it's more or less where I started (thinking about Khorns and such). I had also looked at Econo Waves earlier as well. So why not?
Well I sort of fell in love with the idea of not having a crossover.. or at least not crossing in that crucial vocal band - or even further out if possible.
Also, I keep hearing about all this single driver magic, and wanted to hear it for myself. Whether it's all its hyped up to be, I have no idea... Given that I sort of enjoy my mangy fishers, I may not even notice.. or I might be totally blown away.
Arrays I haven't even dug into yet.. and I think would prefer not to, for simplicities sake. Anyway, it would take a bunch of little 4" drivers to make the Sd of an 18" woofer, hard to beat that kind of sq area.
Also keep in mind future plans of "over the top" tapped horn/folded horn subwoofer (lilMike F20 or lilwrecker, like 17 or 21 hz to 40 hz range) but for HT use mostly... I'd like the mains to stand on their own, and to do it much better than the Fishers do + 12" Jensen powered sub combined.
The El cheapo mid and tweeter drivers in the Fisher sound okay cranked up, as did the Yamaha - it was only the woofer breaking up on the smaller Yamaha that I could hear going wrong... You guys might hear differently however!
If I go to a horn setup, I'll have to cross somewhat high and the crossover suddenly becomes super critical...
Forgive me, which drivers are you using? I'm still looking in the 8"-12" range, but willing to admit that the 10.3 or 12P Alpairs might sound pretty damn good... Hard to say what the difference might be in sound between them and the larger stuff. Larger FR drivers are going to carry the lower end (150hz up) better, while something like the 10.3 is bound to have sweeter highs.
I agree, I can't put my finger on what it is exactly that I don't like about the sound, but this is why I don't want to just buy a DJ setup to rock the living room. Things usually are just muddy, shrill, and loud... not the right combination 🙂
I'm not sure which dirvers we're talking about here though, the 12lta/fane? Or something else? I forget which ones Horizon is using.
I did just happen across a reasonably priced TB full range that might be in the running as well, it's an 8" nominal:
Tang Band W8-2145 8" Paper Cone Full Range Driver 8 Ohm
$100/driver
There's also a Dayton 8" full range that I hadn't noticed before @ PE, but it's actually more than the Tang Band.
There it is, he's using the AN15 classics with 12" Peerless helper woofers. The AN stuff is a bit pricey for my budget unfortunately. I'm also not planning on doing OB due to room constraints, the cabinets really need to be basically up against the wall.
Horizons, I'm assuming you have yours pulled out from the wall?
I was also interested in the TB W8-2145? This is the same price range as the Betsy. Had a used pair that I did a little cone work to, foam behind the whizzer, hole in dust cap, several random dots on the cone, damp basket, on the folded OB with wings, didn't sound to bad. Had someone listen to them and bought them on the spot.
The reason I was interested in the Tone Tubby 8" was the alnico??
Even thought I not big of larger drivers, I might try the Fane with cone work or full EnABL...the price is low enough that fussing with them is not a big deal.
The reason I was interested in the Tone Tubby 8" was the alnico??
Even thought I not big of larger drivers, I might try the Fane with cone work or full EnABL...the price is low enough that fussing with them is not a big deal.
Yes, they are about 3 feet from the rear wall. Note that AN has full range in every size, it's just that they sound better the larger they are. Despite Planet10's trashing of AN drivers (he is a competitor after all) note that Bud Purvine (of enable fame) loves the AN15. You can do a pair of AN10s for under $300/pair.
I truly hope you find the sound you are after at a price you can afford. I am just trying to save you the cost of the journey. I have used Fostex, MarkAudio, Eminence, Zenith, and other full range drivers without musical satisfaction.
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