No!
Danley’s Synergy Horn Designs allow multiple drivers, arranged in different bass-band groups, to operate collectively into a single horn body, to produce wide-band signal that behaves as a single point source. Each drive group is operated within a pass-band (between c/o points) that is less than one decade in extent. e.g. SH69 (90° x 60°) uses 2 x 12” DRs, 6 x 4” DRs and 1 x 1” CD to cover a 55 Hz – 18kHz bandwidth ± 3 dB.
WHG
Danley’s Synergy Horn Designs allow multiple drivers, arranged in different bass-band groups, to operate collectively into a single horn body, to produce wide-band signal that behaves as a single point source. Each drive group is operated within a pass-band (between c/o points) that is less than one decade in extent. e.g. SH69 (90° x 60°) uses 2 x 12” DRs, 6 x 4” DRs and 1 x 1” CD to cover a 55 Hz – 18kHz bandwidth ± 3 dB.
WHG
But it is just one horn, thats what I thought you were naysaying. Driver sets then, not actually the horn(s)? Not arguing just following the discussion.
The clarification helps, I was wondering from which direction to blunder into this discussion. Having run CDs 700ish up with few complaints, the efficiency falls as the horn ceases loading but it still works.
whg, is this one of the relevant points you are making, does a wide waveguide qualify as a cross over to direct radiation, like half a horn, which makes these discrepancies less critical in some way?
whg, is this one of the relevant points you are making, does a wide waveguide qualify as a cross over to direct radiation, like half a horn, which makes these discrepancies less critical in some way?
Is it a question of what works or what works best?
Inevitably there is compromise. The most facile one is to allow the CD to cover more than a decade and constrain your listening position accordingly, especially if your hearing is limited in the top half decade.
I think the CD in the Danley is crossed at just under 1 Khz so it is covering an 18:1 range
Inevitably there is compromise. The most facile one is to allow the CD to cover more than a decade and constrain your listening position accordingly, especially if your hearing is limited in the top half decade.
I think the CD in the Danley is crossed at just under 1 Khz so it is covering an 18:1 range
Thanks
Suspect a slightly higher c/o point is used, particularly because of the intended use in commercial venues; but if it is that low, then the 1/4 wavelength driver separation limit, may be 'forcing' implementation of a lower c/o point on the CD. Also if that were the case, I would expect to see use of a beefier CD (2"T x 4"D) to avoid warrantee return issues. WHG
Suspect a slightly higher c/o point is used, particularly because of the intended use in commercial venues; but if it is that low, then the 1/4 wavelength driver separation limit, may be 'forcing' implementation of a lower c/o point on the CD. Also if that were the case, I would expect to see use of a beefier CD (2"T x 4"D) to avoid warrantee return issues. WHG
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A Horn is Just One Form of a Loudspeaker Baffle.
Danley's Synergy design assemblies a set of drivers on a baffle in such a way as to focus their output to behave as a single point source. For the upper two driver pass band groups, the baffle functions as a horn, for the lower pass band group, it functions more like simple enclosure and in some cases as a Helmholtz Resonator. Tom Danley is one very smart acoustician and that fact is reflected in his designs and marketing acuity as well. WHG
Danley's Synergy design assemblies a set of drivers on a baffle in such a way as to focus their output to behave as a single point source. For the upper two driver pass band groups, the baffle functions as a horn, for the lower pass band group, it functions more like simple enclosure and in some cases as a Helmholtz Resonator. Tom Danley is one very smart acoustician and that fact is reflected in his designs and marketing acuity as well. WHG
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For what it's worth I personally target the decade per driver fool rule in my system. That's not to say I haven't gone well beyond a decade with a single horn/driver with excellent results. Right now I have a pair of Altec 299 drivers with symbotic diaphragms and tangerine phase plugs in big EV HR6040 horns that do 500 to 15K comfortable with no beaming. I've used TAD 4001 and 4002 in similar setups but had beaming issues because I used large round tractrix horns. With the Altec/HR6040 an improvement can be made 6K up with an additional smaller horn and 1" CD. So yeah I like a decade a driver best - certainly especially with low mid/bass horns.
We might be on the same page, not sure but something happens on a horn that unloads quickly. The concept of a cutoff is different.. if diffraction can be managed and reflection reduced, if (un)loading can be handled and the dispersion tolerated, why else not go lower?
I am sure you guy's will be here still in five years, discussing about this and that that does not sound as you want.....
Gone through all of that.
The more you experiment, the more you add complexity to the system, the more dissatisfied you will get.
Thank's God, i am over it !!
Gone through all of that.
The more you experiment, the more you add complexity to the system, the more dissatisfied you will get.
Thank's God, i am over it !!
Glad you found your ticket to perfection 😛 and don''t have to visit audio boards anymore!
Yep. You see me only from time to time lurking and posting over here.....
Some people will only find peace when they change priorities and put things to where they belong.
Some Quick Notes on the Horn Design Trade-Offs
1) For Conical & OS (Freehafer/Geddes) vs. Salmon & Voigt Horns of the same overall dimensions, the onset of diminution of driver loading occurs at a higher frequency than the latter. The more gradual rate of expansion in the horn neck, characterized by the latter, the lower the frequency marking onset of radiation pattern narrowing.
2) A horn optimized for radiation pattern control, while addressing the issue of reflectance, can be characterized by a profile that has a an increasing radius of curvature starting at the throat and then decreasing again to form a horn bell and mouth. Ideally there should be no discontinuities in the curve's 2nd. derivative. In large horns, departures from the ideal are driven by cost and ease of manufacture.
3) Full horn functionality only occurs when wavelength is approximately less than 1/4 horn length and less than mouth perimeter. For wavelengths greater than this the horn function becomes progressively transparent acoustically as it approaches the behavior of a simple baffle. The marketing forces to keep loudspeakers small are immense.
WHG
1) For Conical & OS (Freehafer/Geddes) vs. Salmon & Voigt Horns of the same overall dimensions, the onset of diminution of driver loading occurs at a higher frequency than the latter. The more gradual rate of expansion in the horn neck, characterized by the latter, the lower the frequency marking onset of radiation pattern narrowing.
2) A horn optimized for radiation pattern control, while addressing the issue of reflectance, can be characterized by a profile that has a an increasing radius of curvature starting at the throat and then decreasing again to form a horn bell and mouth. Ideally there should be no discontinuities in the curve's 2nd. derivative. In large horns, departures from the ideal are driven by cost and ease of manufacture.
3) Full horn functionality only occurs when wavelength is approximately less than 1/4 horn length and less than mouth perimeter. For wavelengths greater than this the horn function becomes progressively transparent acoustically as it approaches the behavior of a simple baffle. The marketing forces to keep loudspeakers small are immense.
WHG
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Not Necessarily So.
As Edison once said "1% Inspiration, 99% Perspiration".
Success in any endeavor requires a lot of persistence in the pursuit just a little luck.
Rare as it may be, when it occurs, the rewards can be astounding and even better than winning the Lotto.
WHG
As Edison once said "1% Inspiration, 99% Perspiration".
Success in any endeavor requires a lot of persistence in the pursuit just a little luck.
Rare as it may be, when it occurs, the rewards can be astounding and even better than winning the Lotto.
WHG
I wonder how many DIY'ers confess that they reached audio nirvana with full blown horn multyway horn systems.
I tried, and failed. Going another route, to simplicity brought surprising results.
Geddes has my respect on this.
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Yes ....
.... we all need to throw ourselves a KISS once in awhile.
Design of an all-horn system requires an immense amount of time and effort. PWK spent a whole career in the pursuit of trying and getting that right. And even after that, there remains a lot of room for improvement.
Earl's contributions to the art of loudspeaker design are remarkable and his loudspeaker designs reflect the fact that all-horn systems are not commercially tenable for the at-home venue. The O.S. ("Hyperbolic") horn was first addressed by Freehafer in his 1937 PHD Dissertation [1]. Not until Earl promoted its beneficial radiation characteristics under the banner "Waveguide", did the design become widely used by the loudspeaker design community.
Despite there acoustic and economic limitations, the EV Pat IV, JBL Paragon & Hartsfield (with its big acoustic lens), and Klipsch's Jubilee, remain my favorites. WHG
Reference [1]
https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/46001/35368752-MIT.pdf?sequence=2
.... we all need to throw ourselves a KISS once in awhile.
Design of an all-horn system requires an immense amount of time and effort. PWK spent a whole career in the pursuit of trying and getting that right. And even after that, there remains a lot of room for improvement.
Earl's contributions to the art of loudspeaker design are remarkable and his loudspeaker designs reflect the fact that all-horn systems are not commercially tenable for the at-home venue. The O.S. ("Hyperbolic") horn was first addressed by Freehafer in his 1937 PHD Dissertation [1]. Not until Earl promoted its beneficial radiation characteristics under the banner "Waveguide", did the design become widely used by the loudspeaker design community.
Despite there acoustic and economic limitations, the EV Pat IV, JBL Paragon & Hartsfield (with its big acoustic lens), and Klipsch's Jubilee, remain my favorites. WHG
Reference [1]
https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/46001/35368752-MIT.pdf?sequence=2
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Why doesn't anyone apply multi channel dsp to these large horn arrays? I'm sure they can be made to sound much more coherent with sharp linear phase crossovers. Implemented with proper measurements of course.
That hasn't been my experience. But if experimenting is just trying things at random, sure. Complexity requires good understanding and actual design, otherwise it's just more to get wrong. Simplicity reduces the number of permutations for a trial-and-error approach, that's about it.