The phase plug is suposed to entirely cover the diaphragm.
If a Goto Unit driver sounds bad, the reason for that level of performance has nothing to do with the phase plug. The driver unit is either damaged, poorly loaded, or most likely, has been partly demagnetized. Furthermore, I suspect that the existing driver design has not been optimized through use of modern computerized modeling technologies. So there remains room for improvement above the already magnificent performance level exhibited by these units. I have never seen published PWT tests for these units as well as those made by ALE in spite of their astronomic selling prices. WHG
If a Goto Unit driver sounds bad, the reason for that level of performance has nothing to do with the phase plug. The driver unit is either damaged, poorly loaded, or most likely, has been partly demagnetized. Furthermore, I suspect that the existing driver design has not been optimized through use of modern computerized modeling technologies. So there remains room for improvement above the already magnificent performance level exhibited by these units. I have never seen published PWT tests for these units as well as those made by ALE in spite of their astronomic selling prices. WHG
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Yes, poorly loaded diaphragm without phase plug, because originally it creates very high compression...1:100 I think, because total square of holes 100 times less than diaphragm square.
I don't think that something was wrong with GOTO drivers. I just don't like horn kind of HF. I have best ones including TAD ET703, but they are not good for my taste. I've disassembled GOTO and realized that it is because of phase plug. But without phase plug they don't work higher than 6k.
So, horn HF not my piece of cake.
You are not alone. Too much directivity and HOMs make them sound "too special" for most of us. For pleasant sound we need more late reflections in the room, with wide spectrum that follows original signal.
Yes! I have a friend who cares very much about reflections in the room, but not about reflections in horns! This is all about taste
You know, I'm using horns in very short range near fc where wave length is longer then horn size, so I have zero reflections inside horns.
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Design/Performance Issues
Compression ratios above 10:1 are suspect, and may be an indicator of a third-party, armature effort. Saltshaker designs are dated. Current optimized designs use annular slits whose size and position are subject to optimization algorithms. The mission here is to present a coherent wave front to the horn throat. Air flow resistance simply gets too high at ratios materially above the 10:1 figure. N.B.#1: [Sd] is a projected area of a piston having linear excursion and not the surface area of a radially pulsating spherical cap as many suppose. Use of a properly designed O.S. horn should make what you do not like in horn performance go away, provided a properly designed phase-plug is used in the compression driver. N.B.#2, Trying to get more than a decade of frequency bandwidth from a horn/driver assembly is a 'fools mission'. WHG
Compression ratios above 10:1 are suspect, and may be an indicator of a third-party, armature effort. Saltshaker designs are dated. Current optimized designs use annular slits whose size and position are subject to optimization algorithms. The mission here is to present a coherent wave front to the horn throat. Air flow resistance simply gets too high at ratios materially above the 10:1 figure. N.B.#1: [Sd] is a projected area of a piston having linear excursion and not the surface area of a radially pulsating spherical cap as many suppose. Use of a properly designed O.S. horn should make what you do not like in horn performance go away, provided a properly designed phase-plug is used in the compression driver. N.B.#2, Trying to get more than a decade of frequency bandwidth from a horn/driver assembly is a 'fools mission'. WHG
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Ha!...welcome, my friend!
Sorry, I really hear tad 4001 horn, but not care as much as you about room
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Simply Put ...
... You at a victim of bad horn designs that exhibits frequency dependent radiation patterns or others where pattern narrowing is mitigated by excessive use of diffraction edges. For late reflections, you either acoustically treat the walls, floor and ceiling adjoining the loudspeaker units, or narrow the horn coverage patterns, or both. To implement this control at bandwidth bottom end requires a horn larger than that otherwise required for driver loading. WHG
... You at a victim of bad horn designs that exhibits frequency dependent radiation patterns or others where pattern narrowing is mitigated by excessive use of diffraction edges. For late reflections, you either acoustically treat the walls, floor and ceiling adjoining the loudspeaker units, or narrow the horn coverage patterns, or both. To implement this control at bandwidth bottom end requires a horn larger than that otherwise required for driver loading. WHG
Please ....
SM,
.... do you have a picture of the diaphragm side of the phase plug as well?
This is the first time for me to see inside a Goto Unit Driver!
Do not like what I see.
Regards,
WHG
Yes. Look, diaphragm is almost completely closed by phase plug:
SM,
.... do you have a picture of the diaphragm side of the phase plug as well?
This is the first time for me to see inside a Goto Unit Driver!
Do not like what I see.
Regards,
WHG
Ventures Into the Realm of Diminishing Returns Remains a 'Fools Mission".
Then, multi-way system design would not be necessary.
I have yet to hear a decently sounding all-horn system that did not have at least three horn/drivers per source channel to reproduce the audio bandwidth.
That equates to <= frequency decade per horn/driver depending on system bandwidth capability.
No matter how many times you whish to contest my statement, that action will not change the facts of the matter.
So, I have no plans to waste any further effort responding should you choose to 'rant-on'.
WHG
Say you!Ridiculous
Then, multi-way system design would not be necessary.
I have yet to hear a decently sounding all-horn system that did not have at least three horn/drivers per source channel to reproduce the audio bandwidth.
That equates to <= frequency decade per horn/driver depending on system bandwidth capability.
No matter how many times you whish to contest my statement, that action will not change the facts of the matter.
So, I have no plans to waste any further effort responding should you choose to 'rant-on'.
WHG
Yes, of course. You must use at least three cahnnels if your are usikg horns only, but if you substitute one channel and feel you can live with it, you are not restrained by this rule anymore. The sound may not be equal at all, but it may still sound nice. Avantgarde Duo sound nice, but not perfect.
lol, no rant, all horn systems that crosses over under 2k is 'foolish' -- probably around 90 percent of them do. all them fools at altec jbl ev tad community gedlee all fools, all the econowave people - fools, klipsch, meyer, aspburger, edgarhorn, classic audio fools - so who does whg design for and let me see his decade less horns. thanks
Troll
And Earlier: "Ridiculous statement."
Definition: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intension of causing maximum disruption and argument.
I call each such occurrence a "rant" deserving no further response, except to observe that this submission is yet again a tasteless, out of context, mischaracterization of my earlier statement, and now conveys additional disinformation. WHG
And Earlier: "Ridiculous statement."
Definition: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intension of causing maximum disruption and argument.
I call each such occurrence a "rant" deserving no further response, except to observe that this submission is yet again a tasteless, out of context, mischaracterization of my earlier statement, and now conveys additional disinformation. WHG
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Hybrid System Horn Use Notes
Due to size and cost constraints as well, most loudspeaker systems are of a hybrid design and use direct radiators to cover reproduction of the lower frequencies with the first c/o point to a horn/driver assemblies determined primarily by size and radiating pattern of the horn used. When the this c/o point falls somewhere in the range of 1.2 to 1.5 KHz, some designers ignore the roll-off that occurs in reproducing signals above the decade spanned as they consider the upper bounds of the audible spectrum can only be detected by a gifted few for which a particular design has not been targeted. For lower first c/o points a second horn driver (or super tweeter) is typically used with a second c/o point ranging between 5 to 8 kHz. Yet other designs dedicate a driver to cover the speech range (typically 0.3 to 3 kHz). Characteristic of all these systems is an asymmetric frequency distribution across their driver passbands. The horn/driver pass-band is limited on the low frequency end by driver volume displacement limits, diaphragm rocking modes, and driver unloading and horn reflectance due to horn size becoming appreciably smaller than wave-length; and at the high frequency end, by moving system mass roll-off and the onset of diaphragm break-up modes.
Regards,
WHG
Due to size and cost constraints as well, most loudspeaker systems are of a hybrid design and use direct radiators to cover reproduction of the lower frequencies with the first c/o point to a horn/driver assemblies determined primarily by size and radiating pattern of the horn used. When the this c/o point falls somewhere in the range of 1.2 to 1.5 KHz, some designers ignore the roll-off that occurs in reproducing signals above the decade spanned as they consider the upper bounds of the audible spectrum can only be detected by a gifted few for which a particular design has not been targeted. For lower first c/o points a second horn driver (or super tweeter) is typically used with a second c/o point ranging between 5 to 8 kHz. Yet other designs dedicate a driver to cover the speech range (typically 0.3 to 3 kHz). Characteristic of all these systems is an asymmetric frequency distribution across their driver passbands. The horn/driver pass-band is limited on the low frequency end by driver volume displacement limits, diaphragm rocking modes, and driver unloading and horn reflectance due to horn size becoming appreciably smaller than wave-length; and at the high frequency end, by moving system mass roll-off and the onset of diaphragm break-up modes.
Regards,
WHG
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We were talking about bandwith, compression drivers and removing the factory phase plug. Your claim "Trying to get more than a decade of frequency bandwidth from a horn/driver assembly is a 'fools mission'. WHG"
That IS ridiculous. Virtually all speaker manufactures that use horns or "wave guides" break your fool rule.
OP removed the factory plug and claims it sounds better. Maybe it does, it also limits the bandwith as he states.
I have posted NO disinformation. You have.
I'm also done with this "fools" statement you made.
Later
