In complete agreement with Soldimizer... i 've lost count of the amount of " non - working / faulty " things i've purchased for peanuts and with mostly very simple " repairs " have been restored to fully functioning.
My most recent being a Pioneer 6 disc multichanger that i spotted in a junk shop. It was in mint condition for something over 20 years old . The price was £ 5 not working sold as seen.
I asked the owner what was wrong with it and he said " It turns on but won't play cd's ".
Knowing that the disc cartridges alone fetch silly money on E Bay i parted with my money.
Got it home plugged in and sure enough it turned on . Ejected the 6 disc cartridge and found a cd had been left in one of the trays label side up 🙂 . The " repair " consisted of simply turning the cd over as like many Pioneer players of that era the laser was mounted at the top of the unit facing down which necessitated placing discs " upside down " .
I've also had amps that only ouput one channel cured with contact cleaner and speakers sold cheap that have been purchased by " bassheads" who don't understand quality over quantity .
The point is that knowledge more than ability is the key to finding a " bargain ".
My most recent being a Pioneer 6 disc multichanger that i spotted in a junk shop. It was in mint condition for something over 20 years old . The price was £ 5 not working sold as seen.
I asked the owner what was wrong with it and he said " It turns on but won't play cd's ".
Knowing that the disc cartridges alone fetch silly money on E Bay i parted with my money.
Got it home plugged in and sure enough it turned on . Ejected the 6 disc cartridge and found a cd had been left in one of the trays label side up 🙂 . The " repair " consisted of simply turning the cd over as like many Pioneer players of that era the laser was mounted at the top of the unit facing down which necessitated placing discs " upside down " .
I've also had amps that only ouput one channel cured with contact cleaner and speakers sold cheap that have been purchased by " bassheads" who don't understand quality over quantity .
The point is that knowledge more than ability is the key to finding a " bargain ".
They are right, but this is diy audio, anything goes! and it is so much fun to "try" to build a crossover ... many of diyers have gone digital crossovers for that reason 😀
The crossover parts in manufactured speakers are 9 times out of 10... garbage. The cable they use is usually also garbage. Then to save money on labour, they often use contact "clips" rather than soldered connections.... also garbage.
Any dirt bag can buy a good bottle of wine. Making a great bottle of wine yourself though, that's cool.
Here are a couple of links to make you feel even smarter.
Cynical Introduction to Speaker Pricing
The Stereophile Curve
Erik
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I'd say you can use much better components (not bought in quantity, but then not marked up in retail price). Better than a manufacturer thinks they can get away with. Stronger walls, etc.
Most "creative" or unique aspects that manufacturers tout aren't terribly important or at least are second-order factors (mostly for marketing) like refraction from corners, time alignment (correctable, see below), or dispersion (depends on room).
What you get when you buy one of those expensive little boxes you hear at shows is complicated crossovers (some with 18 elements) that have been fine-tuned with extensive measurements and listening.
It make little sense today to have anything but electronic crossovers. Passive crossovers are crude, hard to measure, and well, you need 18 elements to make 'em work right, and then they are still crude. Which means you have a Behringer DCX2496 digital box in the chain. That allows you to dial-in all the fine adjustments you want and specific to your room, music content, and taste.
... and to buy about $100 worth of gear to measure your results, at least as an aide to your ears.
Ben
Most "creative" or unique aspects that manufacturers tout aren't terribly important or at least are second-order factors (mostly for marketing) like refraction from corners, time alignment (correctable, see below), or dispersion (depends on room).
What you get when you buy one of those expensive little boxes you hear at shows is complicated crossovers (some with 18 elements) that have been fine-tuned with extensive measurements and listening.
It make little sense today to have anything but electronic crossovers. Passive crossovers are crude, hard to measure, and well, you need 18 elements to make 'em work right, and then they are still crude. Which means you have a Behringer DCX2496 digital box in the chain. That allows you to dial-in all the fine adjustments you want and specific to your room, music content, and taste.
... and to buy about $100 worth of gear to measure your results, at least as an aide to your ears.
Ben
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I have heard a truly amazing sounding DIY horn system, but I have neither knowledge nor skill to build sparkers by myself, then I truly envy who can build something like that. The commercial speakers would be a safer bet for me for now, but I believe that DIY speakers can achieve higher SQ.
Anyway, I prefer "DIY look" speaker than commercial sparkers. 😀
Anyway, I prefer "DIY look" speaker than commercial sparkers. 😀
The best solution is you go to the local gov office and register your personal company (DBA, if you're in US) under your own brand name, make a web site with Wordpress template in 1 hour, then you build a pair, buy them from this new commercial brand. 😉
I'll second Jerryo's comment - it's even harder when the donut is rolling😉
There must be dozens of very well documented designs published for the DIY builder by folks like Troels Gravesen, Paul Carmody, CSS/RAW, to name but a few, that would have no trouble holding their own in blind listening tests against most name brands.
Granted, for some of us the quality of finish on a hasty or carefree prototype build is certainly something that can be embarrassing when you raise the curtain😱
There must be dozens of very well documented designs published for the DIY builder by folks like Troels Gravesen, Paul Carmody, CSS/RAW, to name but a few, that would have no trouble holding their own in blind listening tests against most name brands.
Granted, for some of us the quality of finish on a hasty or carefree prototype build is certainly something that can be embarrassing when you raise the curtain😱
Great point. Paul Klipsch insisted his dealers use scrim curtains during demos. (I'd guess folks otherwise would "hear" disjointed sound (from the corners) when in fact. they were hearing great spread-stage stereo with good centred illusion*.)
This is a very important thread.
Ben
*just like folks falsely imagine they can "hear" bass from a sub in a distant corner with a sharp crossover at 130 Hz on music
A good example of stuff that is hard to offer commercially. No way to sell giant horns or to offer very complicated woodwork at decent prices or to anticipate spouse-factor.
The planar/ESL forum is nearly all other examples of stuff you HAVE to make yourself. And if you make your own ESL speakers, there's nothing comparable for good sound.
My own current pet project is motional feedback (the final frontier). Never has been a way to make it stable enough to sell.... always DIY.
Ben
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I've had some quite expensive speakers apart and been amazed at the poor quality components used. Crossovers with cheap electrolytics caps and plain old hookup wire with very little copper. Flimsy cabinets with little damping material and no bracing etc etc. If you are going to the trouble of building your own using a reputable design (eg Troels) you have the luxury of being able to use top quality components and taking great care with the cabinet construction. Bang for buck you will blow a commercial speaker out of the water every time in my experience. Plus you have the satisfaction of having built it yourself . You can then make your friends eat humble pie (unless they are cloth eared which may well be the case).
Speaking personally in one respect I can see where your friends have a point that can be understood. All of the answers here have been about sound, and I agree that diy can easily sound as good as commercial speakers. But speaking for myself they certainly do not look as good. I do not have the tools or workshop that some on this site seem to enjoy. My compromise has been to get non-working commercial speakers and use the boxes. Or get 2nd hand commercial speakers and the diy bit is improving them. Then they can sound good and not look home made.
I feel totally opposite. To me, most DIY speakers look much more impressive than most commercial speakers. My wife would not agree, but she would also agree if I say DIY speakers look much more interesting.
I do not really understand why some DIY speakers try to mimic commercial speakers, which is exactly what Clement Greenberg called "Kitsch". Why not Avant-Gard? I do not mean Avantgarde Acoustic™ speakers 😀
I like the idea of modifying old speakers, and that is what I start doing, since I have zero woodworking skill, unfortunately.
But please do tell us which kinds they have.
"Easy"? Ha! I went to a few DIY listening events and I didn't hear anything that came close (at least, in that venue) to the best sounding commercial speakers I've heard. But, many DIY speakers do sound better than most commercial products. For example, last time I auditioned B&W's top lines, in various audio boutiques in NYC and Tokyo, I found them unbearable and quickly suffered "listening fatigue". The same was true of MOST of the "high end" speakers which were available to listen. The exception was the pair that went through Harmon's blind testing lab evaluation and came out as their top of the line flagship model.
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This.
These days, with careful study and the right tools, it's not hard to get 90% there. As is the case with a lot of things, the last 10% is the hardest. Some consider that a learning opportunity or challenge. Some don't. 🙂
You should feel proud that you had the intellect and skills to build something with your own hands. Anybody can walk into a store and buy a box off the shelf 😉
There are actually speakers you can build as a DIY'er that are essentially not commercially available for the majority of people. Speakers such as a point source multiway horn like a synergy but with a cone driver like the Trynergy or bushmeister's xBush, or even compression driver in a 3-way like Bwaslo's Synergy (Cosyne) or Speakerscott's Synergy, when executed well and fitted with high quality drivers and quasi transient or transient perfect crossovers will sound like no domestic HiFi speaker can. Of course you can go out and buy a pair of Danley SH50's - but they are really too big and "pro audio" looking to be used in a home. They have a sound that will "stun" the listener upon hearing anything like that for the first time. The combination of narrower directivity, ultra low distortion, superb dynamic headroom, incredible imaging. By stun, I mean it stops you in your tracks and your ears and brain tell you "wow - I have never heard a speaker this good before" and you can't help but stop and continue to listen. It's similar to the first time you saw a HD flat screen TV at the store compared to the old fashioned CRT running on NTSC or PAL scan (for those of us old enough to remember a time before flat screen TV's). You know what I mean - you were stunned and stopped in your tracks and stared at that flat screen like you saw the face of God.
If your friends had experienced that kind of a sound epiphany - they would be much less likely to criticize your DIY efforts. I have had many friends and acquaintances come by my house and experienced the familiar stunned sensation and had nothing but the same thing to say: "wow - where can I get something like this for my studio/home/HT room?"
If your friends had experienced that kind of a sound epiphany - they would be much less likely to criticize your DIY efforts. I have had many friends and acquaintances come by my house and experienced the familiar stunned sensation and had nothing but the same thing to say: "wow - where can I get something like this for my studio/home/HT room?"
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I did diy speakers and no shame, very proud of my self.
Thing is you need a coil postioner that helps installing your coil and keeping it in place, allows you to control how far it sits inside and prevents the sides from touching. gule some nice cones and spiders on and whola. Top quality good spekaers 😀
Thing is you need a coil postioner that helps installing your coil and keeping it in place, allows you to control how far it sits inside and prevents the sides from touching. gule some nice cones and spiders on and whola. Top quality good spekaers 😀
"there're only two kinds of speakers in the world: diy or not..."
mostly are 3-way powered speakers, some are magnepan, that's all.
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