--A well executed TM-WW will have a more uniform control directivity function than a complex ribbon + dome + TD6M design. The simpler TM-WW will also have a higher chance for execution excellence.
TW29RN + TD6M + 2*TD12S
DSP crossovers, time alignment, and complex equalization with multiple amps.
Because the TD6M has cone breakup starting around 3Khz, a steep filter like 2Khz LR4-acoustic or similar FIR is necessary. In a 0.2cuft sealed volume, the TD6M produces 93db/watt with an F3~155Hz. DSP cannot correct random cone breakup distortion effects.
Sealed woofers with bass boost and room equalization will have the best transient response and smoothest SPL, but the lower efficiency favors two woofers to rock 'n roll. Two TD12S require 3.4cuft sealed volume for Qtc = 0.7. A modest size bass cabinet. 93db/watt for one; 96db/watt for two with each speaker connected to a separate amp; 99db/watt for two wired in parallel as a low impedance load to one amplifier. DSP boost on the woofers can cover any required baffle step boost. Some cabinet-effect equalization might be necessary on the TD6M.
CABINET: A single shared-volume cabinet like the Avalon Time would have the smallest physical room presence. A two box TM - WW design would allow the TM cabinet more options for vibration isolation and aggressive construction for edge diffraction reduction. Do you have a favorite cabinet design?
--Stylish cabinets with modest complexity wood work--
Pass SR-1 speaker
Jensen 1071
Wilson Alexia clone
TW29RN + TD6M + 2*TD12S
DSP crossovers, time alignment, and complex equalization with multiple amps.
Because the TD6M has cone breakup starting around 3Khz, a steep filter like 2Khz LR4-acoustic or similar FIR is necessary. In a 0.2cuft sealed volume, the TD6M produces 93db/watt with an F3~155Hz. DSP cannot correct random cone breakup distortion effects.
Sealed woofers with bass boost and room equalization will have the best transient response and smoothest SPL, but the lower efficiency favors two woofers to rock 'n roll. Two TD12S require 3.4cuft sealed volume for Qtc = 0.7. A modest size bass cabinet. 93db/watt for one; 96db/watt for two with each speaker connected to a separate amp; 99db/watt for two wired in parallel as a low impedance load to one amplifier. DSP boost on the woofers can cover any required baffle step boost. Some cabinet-effect equalization might be necessary on the TD6M.
CABINET: A single shared-volume cabinet like the Avalon Time would have the smallest physical room presence. A two box TM - WW design would allow the TM cabinet more options for vibration isolation and aggressive construction for edge diffraction reduction. Do you have a favorite cabinet design?
--Stylish cabinets with modest complexity wood work--
Pass SR-1 speaker
Jensen 1071
Wilson Alexia clone
Attachments
The 2-box Avalon ISIS is 60" high with a 54" high tweeter, and uses angled baffles to time align the T+M+W arrivals at the listener. You could mimic the ISIS cabinet shape in a shorter flat-baffle design with a 42" high ear-level tweeter, so it now looks a little like a 2-piece Avalon TIME. DSP would provide time alignment for T+M+W, so the front baffle "could be" flat. The single cabinet TIME would be physically smaller since the woofers can use the volume behind the TM drivers. Since two TD12S drivers only require ~3.4cuft in a sealed Qtc=0.7 alignment, the size(volume=depth) penalty for a two cabinet (TM) +( WW) is probably acceptable for the artistic values, and the options for vibration isolation and aggressive construction for edge diffraction reduction.
Attachments
I would select the Satori TW29RN with 96db sensitivity and smooth SPL and $145 price, over the ScanSpeak D2908/7140 Beryllium with 92db sensitivity and irregular high frequency SPL and $520 price.
Ok, so the Satori TW29RN is my best option to match the other drivers that I have, is this correct or does Satori have an ever better tweeter. I want to put the best tweeter for the money that is available if it will make a listenable difference and not just wasting money. I really appreciate your expertise. The reason I am leaning towards a two cabinet speaker is for moving purposes. I just had a complete hip replacement surgery on the 6th of June, 2016' so I don't want to dislocate my hips trying to move the speaker for some reason. Let me ask if you were building this speaker and didn't want to have to do this again, which way would you go. The two cab design seems like it would allow me to maybe build a couple of top cabs where I could use to different types of tweeters in case they come out with something later that just blows the Satori away in sound and price. Thanks for your help, you are the man. I am so glad to get this done. I want to make sure that you didn't have a better tweeter to match my system that would make a huge difference. Thanks again.
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"To Be, or not To Be, that is the Satori question"
They both have the same physical dimensions, same impedance, and very similar response, so put your effort into cabinet design and DSP programming. Sketch out your cabinet design with bracing, and run baffle shape simulators to get FRD-adjust files from the shape. You can use this to DSP different Xover options. THEN WHEN YOUR CABINET IS BUILT, you can read the latest reviews(and your bank book) to decide.
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I would be VERY HAPPY with the current Satori TW29RN. I suspect that the TW29RN will sound smoother over the 2k -10kHz, and for those who can hear past 16Khz, the TW29BN may gain word-or-mouth favor (bragging rights).
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For reduced weight for moving, you could build a 1.7-1.8 cuft sealed box for each TD12S, plus a separate TM box. Three lighter boxes with a higher total weight. The "rounds" cabinet design in post #221 lower right corner offers very good edge diffraction control without a super-thick front baffle. There are MDF edge rounds available on-line as shown in #221. The Avalon cabinets use large stack-up heavy baffles with complex angle cuts for reducing edge diffraction. So, depends upon both "style" and wood shop equipment.
They both have the same physical dimensions, same impedance, and very similar response, so put your effort into cabinet design and DSP programming. Sketch out your cabinet design with bracing, and run baffle shape simulators to get FRD-adjust files from the shape. You can use this to DSP different Xover options. THEN WHEN YOUR CABINET IS BUILT, you can read the latest reviews(and your bank book) to decide.
====
I would be VERY HAPPY with the current Satori TW29RN. I suspect that the TW29RN will sound smoother over the 2k -10kHz, and for those who can hear past 16Khz, the TW29BN may gain word-or-mouth favor (bragging rights).
====
For reduced weight for moving, you could build a 1.7-1.8 cuft sealed box for each TD12S, plus a separate TM box. Three lighter boxes with a higher total weight. The "rounds" cabinet design in post #221 lower right corner offers very good edge diffraction control without a super-thick front baffle. There are MDF edge rounds available on-line as shown in #221. The Avalon cabinets use large stack-up heavy baffles with complex angle cuts for reducing edge diffraction. So, depends upon both "style" and wood shop equipment.
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Tweeters for 3 way build
Well I was telling my friend about the Satori TW29RN tweeters and he and the wife said I should wait to here from a few others here on the form and get some more opinions before making a purchase. So let's here from some of you other guru's. We are satisfied with the cabinet design that has been suggested it's just we want to make sure the tweeter is the correct one for the best possible sound. Is everyone in compliance with the thought that the Satori TW29RN is the best route to go. Let's here your thoughts.
Thanks.
Well I was telling my friend about the Satori TW29RN tweeters and he and the wife said I should wait to here from a few others here on the form and get some more opinions before making a purchase. So let's here from some of you other guru's. We are satisfied with the cabinet design that has been suggested it's just we want to make sure the tweeter is the correct one for the best possible sound. Is everyone in compliance with the thought that the Satori TW29RN is the best route to go. Let's here your thoughts.
Thanks.
Well I suppose it depends what you want.
The ring domes have poorer off axis response vs standard 1" domes, which is beneficial in reducing room reflections in lots of rooms.
The Satori ring dome has high sensitivity and low distortion but its 2nd order is elevated vs other tweeters. This seems to be a trend with lots of wide surround tweeters.
Scanspeaks good old D2905/97 and 99 show completely different performance with much lower 2nd order whilst keeping the rest of the harmonics very low also. Certainly they are more linear devices.
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Transducer Labs tweeters follow a similar trend and use good old fashioned narrow surrounds too. If you wanted to use a hard, stiff dome for pistonic operation then a TL tweeter would be the obvious choice, shame they look like crap. Put them in a waveguide though and you gain significantly in terms of appearance and the controlled directivity.
The ring domes have poorer off axis response vs standard 1" domes, which is beneficial in reducing room reflections in lots of rooms.
The Satori ring dome has high sensitivity and low distortion but its 2nd order is elevated vs other tweeters. This seems to be a trend with lots of wide surround tweeters.
Scanspeaks good old D2905/97 and 99 show completely different performance with much lower 2nd order whilst keeping the rest of the harmonics very low also. Certainly they are more linear devices.
??-????????
??-????????
Transducer Labs tweeters follow a similar trend and use good old fashioned narrow surrounds too. If you wanted to use a hard, stiff dome for pistonic operation then a TL tweeter would be the obvious choice, shame they look like crap. Put them in a waveguide though and you gain significantly in terms of appearance and the controlled directivity.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/268782-sealed-enclosures-my-ae-td12s-ae-td6m.html
The new Satori TW29RN dome tweeter will allow you to complete an excellent speaker with the proven TM-WW layout. There are a few diy build threads on cloning Avalon speakers which can help you design the internal bracing.
If you combine the info in your two threads you should be able to draw up your cabinet design and talk to your wood shop to finalize construction details. Since you are building separate sealed WW bass cabinet and sealed TM cabinet, you will want to run a few baffle sims on the TM using a tool like "Baffle Diffraction Simulator" Beta 6.07 written by Paul Verdone. This will allow you to finalize the baffle shape and tweeter position, and test a rough model of beveled edges. It would probably be best for group learning if you go back to the original thread to discuss your cabinet construction and miniDSP programming.
-The miniDSP 4x10 cannot correct:
--cabinet diffraction
--cone break-up
-- small "bumps" in SPL from cabinet gaps and buldges
-- irregular SPLs and in-room polar patterns from poor tweeter placement on the baffle
Baffle Diffraction Simulator
The new Satori TW29RN dome tweeter will allow you to complete an excellent speaker with the proven TM-WW layout. There are a few diy build threads on cloning Avalon speakers which can help you design the internal bracing.
If you combine the info in your two threads you should be able to draw up your cabinet design and talk to your wood shop to finalize construction details. Since you are building separate sealed WW bass cabinet and sealed TM cabinet, you will want to run a few baffle sims on the TM using a tool like "Baffle Diffraction Simulator" Beta 6.07 written by Paul Verdone. This will allow you to finalize the baffle shape and tweeter position, and test a rough model of beveled edges. It would probably be best for group learning if you go back to the original thread to discuss your cabinet construction and miniDSP programming.
-The miniDSP 4x10 cannot correct:
--cabinet diffraction
--cone break-up
-- small "bumps" in SPL from cabinet gaps and buldges
-- irregular SPLs and in-room polar patterns from poor tweeter placement on the baffle
Baffle Diffraction Simulator
Thanks, I spoke with the guy from Transducer Labs today and I told him my set up and what I wanted to achieve and he said if it were him based on my expectations he would use the N26CR2-G tweeters. He said he has used them all and he perfers the ceramic glass over all the TL tweeters. He said the Beryllium is more for studio monitor and not really real world listening. So i'm thinking Transducer Lab N26CR2-G 91.5db or Satori TW29RN 96db. So it comes down to which is the better tweeter for my type of music in which some of the recordings aren't that great and some are excellent. TL price is $150.38 ea for a match pair total $300.76 vs Satori TW29RN at $156.06 ea and $312.12 roughly the same price. Remember my woofers and mid are 93db. My thoughts are the my woofers and mid will lose about 1db do to baffle step and the tweeter will gain about 1db from baffle step. Thoughts please.
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