If someone do not know why an amplifier sound musically, and how measure it, then they will design by trial and error.
To some degree I believe it is a mystery 😉
My finding is that the first requirement is that the amplifier should be able to "control" the speaker. We are talking about current here. The amp should be able to do V-to-I perfectly.
And furthermore I'm afraid that this "mystery" relates to PHASE somehow (which is considered inaudible in general).
And I believe that high frequency is more important than general belief... Because it is more "destructive" than LF.
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Cyrus 1 & 2 were popular in UK/Europe, many moons ago. There are still numbers of used amplifiers available at reasonable prices so there's no need there to build from scratch. I posted the Cyrus 1 schematic and it's source at #90 which can't be more than a page or 2 back.
I think we know that "'reviews" gush out of the internet. Most are naive fiction and the authors usually neglect to tell you the condition of the used electronics that they describe - specifically the age of the electrolytic capacitors which cause SQ to change gradually throughout their useful life. You only have to replace them after 10-20 years to realise how much they change and make a nonsense of earlier impressions. You'll see that supported by suggestions made even 8 years ago here: Cyrus 1 and 2 amps - still a great second hand buy? | What Hi-Fi?
Google is your friend, if you trust amateur reviews of old equipment.
I think we know that "'reviews" gush out of the internet. Most are naive fiction and the authors usually neglect to tell you the condition of the used electronics that they describe - specifically the age of the electrolytic capacitors which cause SQ to change gradually throughout their useful life. You only have to replace them after 10-20 years to realise how much they change and make a nonsense of earlier impressions. You'll see that supported by suggestions made even 8 years ago here: Cyrus 1 and 2 amps - still a great second hand buy? | What Hi-Fi?
Google is your friend, if you trust amateur reviews of old equipment.
tast??
No
I not looking for tast...Im looking for an amplifier that will pass all the musical information ...that when you have a real good source possibly something that you yourself recorded live..I have.... then you know what its suppose to sound like MUSIC all of the musical instruments sound like themselves with proper form brass has peculiar sounds and attack!
now.... every instrument has a sound.... a color ...good recorded voices have to have proper S sounds Ch sounds etc... I hope you get where i am going here
Lawrence
No
I not looking for tast...Im looking for an amplifier that will pass all the musical information ...that when you have a real good source possibly something that you yourself recorded live..I have.... then you know what its suppose to sound like MUSIC all of the musical instruments sound like themselves with proper form brass has peculiar sounds and attack!now.... every instrument has a sound.... a color ...good recorded voices have to have proper S sounds Ch sounds etc... I hope you get where i am going here
Lawrence
One mystery is knowing what it takes for us to be able to enjoy the music and forget the electronics. And we don't know how a recording supposed to sound. Does the music supposed to sound irritating just because there was a mistake in the recording? This makes things more complicated.
I think early in the beginning of this thread I asked Mooly and Sk8Ter how much time they spent for music everyday. I asked this because I know good sound is like dope. You just cannot stop. You miss them every time. You don't go to work, you don't go to sleep.
And it has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone can design an amplifier or not. Many of those designers only follow "guidelines" (OLG, phase margin/gain margin, PSRR, yucks...) and many of them don't have good ears. Even worse, electronics is not always about music.
Lawrence, an amplifier shouldn't be analyzed/designed separately from it's load (speaker). Now I know from your post that Fulton used HK430 to design the speaker (CMIIW).
Before designing my own amps I have been building speakers since childhood. And I know for sure that I would prefer my speaker with your HK430 than whatever best amp out there with "unknown" speaker.
Today/yesterday I experienced another "mystery" in audio. I replaced the output transistors of an amp that I have been listening for the last few months. I have used this amp to listen to various different output transistors. And for the first time I feel that the sound is just "right". Not as transparent as Toshiba 2SC5200 or Sanken 2SC2922 (MT200), but so natural and musical...
I wondered, what differences do these transistor make electrically? Isn't it hard to believe that there is audible differences? 😀 If this is not my imagination, then a different output transistor can change the sound considerably. And if those Toshiba in the H/K430 were changed with whatever transistors, then the "magic" might be lost...
With this experience, for the first time I have a faith in BJT... 😀
I wondered, what differences do these transistor make electrically? Isn't it hard to believe that there is audible differences? 😀 If this is not my imagination, then a different output transistor can change the sound considerably. And if those Toshiba in the H/K430 were changed with whatever transistors, then the "magic" might be lost...
With this experience, for the first time I have a faith in BJT... 😀
more thoughts
another reason why most people "Wont" get it because there so used to hearing amplifiers that are so exaggerated that when they hear something more musically correct they think its wrong etc...
I agree that the amplifier should pass all the musical information ...not exaggerate it!
Lawrence
another reason why most people "Wont" get it because there so used to hearing amplifiers that are so exaggerated that when they hear something more musically correct they think its wrong etc...
I agree that the amplifier should pass all the musical information ...not exaggerate it!
Lawrence
This is very very true and I thought I could have made a mistake when long time ago I decided that quasi amps and darlington amps are not for me. Many amps I have built are only heard a few minutes then disassembled.
These transistors I just tried this weekend, were actually considered by me as my "best" BJT collection. I kept it for a long time intended to use it in my best BJT amp, if I ever decided to make one...
When I plugged them in to replace the Toshiba 2SC5200, I was so disappointed. It was so dull and not transparent (and the collector was amazingly very hard to solder). But in my disappointment I just leave it playing and from my bed room I was a bit surprise that I could "sing along" with it, even tho I thought it sounded like a boombox. Then I woke up and sit next to the speaker till morning and realized that this is the right sound I'm looking for...
It is not transparent, but surprisingly ALL natural details were there: the background instruments, the singer's emotions... I played a certain recording, it doesn't produce the remarkable low bass extension the Sanken 2SC2922 (MT200) does, but everything is just right and so natural...
My wife didn't want me to stop the music. And I also don't want to make change to the amp. So I will keep it as is as a reference for other amp builds.
This amp is complementary (push-pull) design. I will try later in quasi-complementary design but I have no candidate yet...
Very refreshing!
Now if you would be so kind what are the bjt number?
If you don't want it public please pm me
Lawrence
Now if you would be so kind what are the bjt number?
If you don't want it public please pm me
Lawrence
It's just the most basic and simple LIN topology. PNP 2SA1015-GR for the LTP and CCS. NPN 2SD1xxx (I forgot) for the beta-enhancer, which is in the same package as D400, only with better spec. I forgot the VAS transistor, but it is one of the best, with Cob around 2pF.
Other parts are very cheap, only input cap is Black Gate N and FB cap is OSCON. Everything else is just cheap.
Jay
updates? I am still not exactly sure what amplifier i am going to build first...
I will tell ya the 430 is going to be one tuff act to follow there are times I just shake my head in disbelieve🙂
I like the idea of the lm3886 chip amp for many reasons ..the one that uses the LM318 op amp IMO what i like about the amp
man so many choices but so many are similar I would rather be listening then be in my office lab soldering
Lawrence
updates? I am still not exactly sure what amplifier i am going to build first...
I will tell ya the 430 is going to be one tuff act to follow there are times I just shake my head in disbelieve🙂
I like the idea of the lm3886 chip amp for many reasons ..the one that uses the LM318 op amp IMO what i like about the amp
man so many choices but so many are similar I would rather be listening then be in my office lab soldering
Lawrence
My latest build is a horrible amplifier. I don't know why I spent my time building the amplifier... 🙁
I'm now eyeing on Samuel Groner VAS as developed by OS... Too many plans... strangely the worst got executed first...
For most of the good plans (that's including the H/K 430), I cannot just build and trust the schematic before analyzing the circuit in LTspice myself. I have 3 laptops on my table, I need to move them out if I want to put my design desktop on the table...
I'm now eyeing on Samuel Groner VAS as developed by OS... Too many plans... strangely the worst got executed first...
For most of the good plans (that's including the H/K 430), I cannot just build and trust the schematic before analyzing the circuit in LTspice myself. I have 3 laptops on my table, I need to move them out if I want to put my design desktop on the table...
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