May be a language thing, but your questions seem confusing. Are you trying to get a measure of if you believe Steven knows what he is talking about or is there some other reason? I'm scratching my head here, but realise I may be completely misreading things.
Neh, hammer too small, maybe a lack of interest. I believe that designers knew their job. As DIYer I am driven by different forces. I simply like high-impedance drivers, by default. But assuming wife approval, I would not refuse working even on 1ohm speakers if well made. Why not?
Sure, attempting to drive with amps currently present in house or on market, it will fail. But as DIY project one can surely integrate better, reveal lots of goodies, discover the mind of original designer, improve on it if you can...
I do not really understand what you say. I translate with "non-integrity"...? Here if a product is custom made for a system, then won't be sold unless you buy the full system. Now, there is another phüilosophy, maybe? Successful technically and successfully by selling it without the custom system. Crazy sells indeed, but is also matter of size and business taste.
I came to what I want most🙂 Please give some more info. Which models you know? I am now officially curious 🙂
Thanks
There is either a context which you missed, or a bit of paranoid thinking after a good beer🙂 But maybe it is a language issue too... how can I know?
Yes, my questions are almost always confusing.
We call it enough for today?
I will go and think about umbrella effect, ok?
Maybe somebody will stick to topic and reply my challenge to post their squarewave response together with X-over and details of drivers(TS, electrical). If not, who cares.
Thanks.
Put it another way, the good designers that didn't have a marketing sparkle tended to fade. We remember Arnie Nudell, Nelson Pass, Ivor Tiefenbrun etc, but many other names we cannot remember. Being a good designer on its own does not make for success.
DIY allows YOU to set your own rules.
Not claiming a lack of integrity, just that hifi being a man thing there is something about man size speakers that need man size amps to drive them. Krell did very well out of some of the extreme speakers of the 80s. Why else would you want an amplifier than can deliver 1200W in 1ohm?
I have a pair of the hybrid centaur minors playing music now and have listened a lot to the larger hybrids. Duettas at hifi shows. Never the big 3-ways, they are still on my list. Very rare to find in UK, even rarer to have a big enough room to let them sing. The 26" ribbon can be run down to about 500Hz if you keep peaks around 103dB/2m which is way more than I need.
Am I deluded? Probably! do I care? No
Thanks[/QUOTE]
Joe Rasmussen has not posted here lately. Like 3 pages since it all got heated and ugly and bans were handed out. I see that 3 same people (IMO) are still busy derailing or poo-pooing this. I don't blame Joe for sitting back for a while, anyway he's a busy man. But myself, I find that Joe answers my questions, albeit by PM ATM. And I've learned some new stuff. 😎
TBH, if you're not interested in impedance effects on amplifiers, or don't believe it matters, it would help the thread if you just kept quiet for now. We had a really good thread going on series crossovers a while back. It got derailed into 68 pages of argument. No progress at all. Subsequently I've done a lot of work on them, collaborated with Cousin Billy, and found that there IS something special and elegant about them, but I'm not going into it.
OK, rant over, back on topic.
Michael Chua is another really good and sharing guy here at the forum. I read his site with interest:
"STARLING" (Seas 27TDFC + Seas ER18RNX) Bookshelf by AmpsLab
I trust him on that, he's built a lot of stuff. We all know those rare speakers that just seem to sound so smooth and musical. What is special about the Starling? It has a rare RL bafflestep correction style. It's not actually very impressive in most respects, but it sounds good with SEAS 6" bass and 1" tweeter which is a hard speaker IMO. 😕
So given my rough and ready sim with similar electrical response on vaguely similar drivers, what stands out? You tell me. 🙂
BTW, I think he missed a trick. I'd add another component or two based on Joe's ideas. Which I share.
TBH, if you're not interested in impedance effects on amplifiers, or don't believe it matters, it would help the thread if you just kept quiet for now. We had a really good thread going on series crossovers a while back. It got derailed into 68 pages of argument. No progress at all. Subsequently I've done a lot of work on them, collaborated with Cousin Billy, and found that there IS something special and elegant about them, but I'm not going into it.
OK, rant over, back on topic.
Michael Chua is another really good and sharing guy here at the forum. I read his site with interest:
"STARLING" (Seas 27TDFC + Seas ER18RNX) Bookshelf by AmpsLab
Michael Chua said:
I trust him on that, he's built a lot of stuff. We all know those rare speakers that just seem to sound so smooth and musical. What is special about the Starling? It has a rare RL bafflestep correction style. It's not actually very impressive in most respects, but it sounds good with SEAS 6" bass and 1" tweeter which is a hard speaker IMO. 😕
So given my rough and ready sim with similar electrical response on vaguely similar drivers, what stands out? You tell me. 🙂
BTW, I think he missed a trick. I'd add another component or two based on Joe's ideas. Which I share.
Attachments
I feel left out, you say you are a physicist and EE is that Joe-physics and Joe-
EE. Seriously Joe's website has some stuff that is so far off the wall that no one versed in a normal technical education could take it seriously.
I am a Physicist, I find String-Theory much more interesting than loudspeakers. I even have an MSc in Telecoms, and BSc in Physics. At top Colleges. Just how it worked out.
But you haven't answered my question..."Fools must pretend to be wise, an all that", I understand the ego problems...seriously I want you to start THINKING rather than pretend to be clever. We are all clever here. I know I am. I am in the top 1% percentile. Embarrassing in a Politically-Correct Universe where everybody is supposed to be equal, but there it is. 🙂
If you are really bright you can pick out the good stuff. And Joe may say things you agree with and things you disagree with, but he is a significant contributor IMO. 😀
What's hard about saying somebody apart from you might have a good idea now and then. Think about it. When did you become so mean? 😱
There's not much to gain from this thread and more to lose. 🙁
In general, Steve, you may notice those that prefer conservation of mass/energy/etc and whom also stick to their guns get called all kinds of terms. Please give me the ostensibly grouchy, realistic engineer day-in-day-out. As to the points about this or that cleverness/education--I think we do best by keeping a healthy eye on Mr. Nock's quote above.
In general, Steve, you may notice those that prefer conservation of mass/energy/etc and whom also stick to their guns get called all kinds of terms. Please give me the ostensibly grouchy, realistic engineer day-in-day-out. As to the points about this or that cleverness/education--I think we do best by keeping a healthy eye on Mr. Nock's quote above.
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OK, nobody is bright enough to GET IT. 😱
Is it hard? 😕
It's the flat impedance! Joe is onto something. 🙄
So I say, THANKYOU Joe. But that's just me, I'm a generous spirit. 🙂
Is it hard? 😕
Michael Chua said:
It's the flat impedance! Joe is onto something. 🙄
So I say, THANKYOU Joe. But that's just me, I'm a generous spirit. 🙂
Confession: Google, albeit not recently. 😀
It reminded me too much of C.S. Lewis's writings.
Right, what topic? When all else fails cheap shot, because there is no real content in what you are presenting.
Hi system7,
Good lord! THAT was your hard to get point? Sheeesh.
Real men go active x-over using voltage amps. That's the truth of the entire matter. Passive crossovers are a necessary evil if you have to drive a speaker system with one amplifier. I suggest you stop beating your fellow posters with a flawed technology and maybe, just maybe you will learn something. You can start by going back to Joe's website and really reading it from the physics background you say you have. Maybe it's a lack of experience that bolsters your attitude. Life can be a great equalizer.
-Chris
Good lord! THAT was your hard to get point? Sheeesh.
Real men go active x-over using voltage amps. That's the truth of the entire matter. Passive crossovers are a necessary evil if you have to drive a speaker system with one amplifier. I suggest you stop beating your fellow posters with a flawed technology and maybe, just maybe you will learn something. You can start by going back to Joe's website and really reading it from the physics background you say you have. Maybe it's a lack of experience that bolsters your attitude. Life can be a great equalizer.
-Chris
Chris, TBH, you've never offended me in my life. So I have no axe to grind with you.
BUT YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION! Until, I gave you the answer! Then you pretend you DID know. 😱
I get very tired of the open-baffle, closed baffle nonsense here. I don't much care about active crossovers versus passive crossovers. Full-range versus mutiway is boring.
If anybody knew what the perfect speaker is, we wouldn't be debating this. We'd have them installed and listening to them. They'd be perfect. End of.
As it is, we just plough on endlessly. This forum ain't really reaching any conclusions, IMO. Just endless speculation. 😀
Hi system7,
Once you have been in the audio business for many years, smooth graph traces are expected. To be honest, it was noted but I had no idea what you were going for. I think the rest of the audience experienced the same thing I did.
Once you have heard a decent actively crossed over system, you can't go back easily. There is more impact and sparkle that is exactly right with those systems. They make many other approaches a no-starter. However, what does cause these discussions is the appearance of cost. That is what forces speaker systems to be what they are today. So if cost were no object, then we would be having a different discussion now. There will always be differences in taste and execution of designs, so variety.
I was very serious about my suggestion that you read Joe's website over. You can't be trained in any branch of science and get through that without gagging. Some of what he has published there is way off the reservation. Way gone.
-Chris
Once you have been in the audio business for many years, smooth graph traces are expected. To be honest, it was noted but I had no idea what you were going for. I think the rest of the audience experienced the same thing I did.
Once you have heard a decent actively crossed over system, you can't go back easily. There is more impact and sparkle that is exactly right with those systems. They make many other approaches a no-starter. However, what does cause these discussions is the appearance of cost. That is what forces speaker systems to be what they are today. So if cost were no object, then we would be having a different discussion now. There will always be differences in taste and execution of designs, so variety.
I was very serious about my suggestion that you read Joe's website over. You can't be trained in any branch of science and get through that without gagging. Some of what he has published there is way off the reservation. Way gone.
-Chris
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