My system you can see in video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVNPbQuVBZo
But now i change 95hz exponential horn to 110hz tractrix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVNPbQuVBZo
But now i change 95hz exponential horn to 110hz tractrix.
What a nice gathering. Vinyl, horns, live music, I wish I was there 🙂
Your system looks very nice. I guess you are running it active with time delays as it does not look acoustically aligned. So is it JMLC 1400, JMLC 350 and tractrix 110? What are the drivers and passbands. What kind of subs are you filling the bottom octaves with?
Let me know more, nice to see it here.
Very nice. Looks like it's coming along nicely. I think a horn revolution is happening. My only thought when looking at the rear picture is 'man, that system needs more alnico'!
I use standard pro speakers like - BMS, EV.
Yes, system is active with dsp.
I bass i have tapped 25hz horn. (but it is difficult to cross them together with midbass horn). In future i build smaller tapped horn.
Sorry i'm not Alnico fan, i like neo.
Yes, system is active with dsp.
I bass i have tapped 25hz horn. (but it is difficult to cross them together with midbass horn). In future i build smaller tapped horn.
Sorry i'm not Alnico fan, i like neo.
the bass units
I have nearly finished building the 291lt, dual TAD 1601b bass units. Just need to install the flared ports and close the back! I will drive these separately with AVM 3.2 mono block amps.
The rest of the horn system is driven with set (Line Magnetic 219ia).
Sorry for the badly taken photo and no measurements yet! They are coming after I have a few days holiday to sort everything out. This weekend I took one wall off my house to make my room 20m2 bigger!
I have nearly finished building the 291lt, dual TAD 1601b bass units. Just need to install the flared ports and close the back! I will drive these separately with AVM 3.2 mono block amps.
The rest of the horn system is driven with set (Line Magnetic 219ia).
Sorry for the badly taken photo and no measurements yet! They are coming after I have a few days holiday to sort everything out. This weekend I took one wall off my house to make my room 20m2 bigger!
Attachments
Hi again, which values did you use here?
And do you still cross 475 and T500 like this?
Kodomo - a very interesting thread so far - any updates available - would be very interested to see your measurements and the imlementation of the bass system
Cheers, Hajo
Cheers, Hajo
I am playing music now but only four-way. I will use a First Watt B4mk1 active electronic crossover (without delay) in adittion til Groundsound.
update on 5 way system
I have finished building everything and have been working on crossovers. They ended up being 6db filters except for the bass reflex boxes upper knee, that is 12db. However, I have found out why the 6db filters were not filtering properly while I was testing. Then I realised these very soft filters of 6db were working against the impedance and unless the impedance of the drivers become flat, they were not able to filter properly. So, now my 6db filters are much more complicated than a capacitor and an inductor. The filtering part is actually simple, but the impedance flattening part makes the crossover more complicated. This is why I think vandersteen crossovers look like they do! I did not do this crossover work alone, I got help from a German engineering team.
The only measurements I would share today are the measurements without any filtering for horns and drivers. Hopefully in about a month I will be finishing the whole system. You can see the filtered results and the total response then. After that, it will be another few months for me to find the best balance in between drivers relative to each other in my specific room. These measurements are done 1 meters away from the diaphragms.
I also worked on acoustics of the room. I calculated how much absorption I needed. Then I looked for panels but the panels that were really working broadband were expensive and hard to import. So I diy them 🙂 They are covered with a curved 5mm plywood, with holes that were drilled via cnc in a pseudo random pattern (two 60x60cm patterns, as the center needs bracing and no holes should be there). Behind it is fibretex textile and behind that is 10cm's of 100kg/m3 mineral fibre. To cover it up, I again used fibretex. This panel work very efficiently from 125hz onwards. It has 1 sabin units of absorption at 125hz! and goes evenly up until 4000hz. It also diffuses the midrange nicely and reflect and scatters the highs. I am very happy about these panels. I made 12 of these panels.
After all this, the actual frequency bands have now become like this;
30hz - 150hz - Dual Tad 1601b bass reflex boxes
150hz - 600hz - Supravox 285, cf110hz tractrix
600hz - 4800hz - Radian 850pb, cf200hz tractrix
4800hz - 9600hz - Radian 475be-pb, cf1400hz tractrix
9600hz - 20.000hz+ - Fostex t500amkII
I have finished building everything and have been working on crossovers. They ended up being 6db filters except for the bass reflex boxes upper knee, that is 12db. However, I have found out why the 6db filters were not filtering properly while I was testing. Then I realised these very soft filters of 6db were working against the impedance and unless the impedance of the drivers become flat, they were not able to filter properly. So, now my 6db filters are much more complicated than a capacitor and an inductor. The filtering part is actually simple, but the impedance flattening part makes the crossover more complicated. This is why I think vandersteen crossovers look like they do! I did not do this crossover work alone, I got help from a German engineering team.
The only measurements I would share today are the measurements without any filtering for horns and drivers. Hopefully in about a month I will be finishing the whole system. You can see the filtered results and the total response then. After that, it will be another few months for me to find the best balance in between drivers relative to each other in my specific room. These measurements are done 1 meters away from the diaphragms.
I also worked on acoustics of the room. I calculated how much absorption I needed. Then I looked for panels but the panels that were really working broadband were expensive and hard to import. So I diy them 🙂 They are covered with a curved 5mm plywood, with holes that were drilled via cnc in a pseudo random pattern (two 60x60cm patterns, as the center needs bracing and no holes should be there). Behind it is fibretex textile and behind that is 10cm's of 100kg/m3 mineral fibre. To cover it up, I again used fibretex. This panel work very efficiently from 125hz onwards. It has 1 sabin units of absorption at 125hz! and goes evenly up until 4000hz. It also diffuses the midrange nicely and reflect and scatters the highs. I am very happy about these panels. I made 12 of these panels.
After all this, the actual frequency bands have now become like this;
30hz - 150hz - Dual Tad 1601b bass reflex boxes
150hz - 600hz - Supravox 285, cf110hz tractrix
600hz - 4800hz - Radian 850pb, cf200hz tractrix
4800hz - 9600hz - Radian 475be-pb, cf1400hz tractrix
9600hz - 20.000hz+ - Fostex t500amkII
Attachments
Hi!
Big thanks for measurements.
I also bought Tractrix 110 with 8" eighteensound driver.
I see that you have big dip in 320Hz. In my athoner project i also use supravox 285-2000 and have this dip too. This is driver problem.
Big thanks for measurements.
I also bought Tractrix 110 with 8" eighteensound driver.
I see that you have big dip in 320Hz. In my athoner project i also use supravox 285-2000 and have this dip too. This is driver problem.
Yes Maxx, I guess so. For the 285 in cf110hz horn however, with acoustic treatments partially applied while measuring, I had a more even response than the ones I shared. Around 200hz, the response was much more smoother, and the 320hz dip was there, but about 2db less pronounced...
This dip is not welcome by me but is not effecting the overall sound a lot, or I am not able to hear it. Maybe I should listen to more music with the root note of E 🙂
The upperbass horn sounds really good by the way, especially after the corner horn (klipschorn). I hope you can implement in properly with your setup. You can see what I have done with it from the previous posts. (the mouth details, back chamber, etc.)
This dip is not welcome by me but is not effecting the overall sound a lot, or I am not able to hear it. Maybe I should listen to more music with the root note of E 🙂
The upperbass horn sounds really good by the way, especially after the corner horn (klipschorn). I hope you can implement in properly with your setup. You can see what I have done with it from the previous posts. (the mouth details, back chamber, etc.)
The problem with 320Hz dip is bigger than you imagine. If you measure impedance then you see big resonance in this region. Tube amplifiers are very sensitive to impedance irregularity. In this region harmonic distortions will be ~5%.
looking at the curves i see that you have a large overlap. This will sound dirty. I think LR24 in the upper ends is only option.
I would not use the 475, the large format driver is far superior measurement wise in the range you want to use the 475. it also looks like it will hand off to the tweeter no problem.
Something is really wrong with the performance of the upper bass mid horn.?? You say it is the driver? What other drivers do you have to load in it?
Something is really wrong with the performance of the upper bass mid horn.?? You say it is the driver? What other drivers do you have to load in it?
If we want good sound, we need to follow 3 octave law.
fostex 9600-<
475 - 2000-9600
850 - 500-2000
supravox - 150-500
Only way to do this - dsp
fostex 9600-<
475 - 2000-9600
850 - 500-2000
supravox - 150-500
Only way to do this - dsp
When we buy experiment with supravox - we also try EVM 12L, JBL2020H.
But now we order 12nd610
Funny, you mention a "three octave law" and then go on to list a bunch of TWO octave ranges.
Three octave ranges would be something like this:
(Super-tweeter: > 10k)
High: 1200-10k
Mid: 160-1200
Low: 20-160
or:
High: 2500-20k
Mid: 320-2500
Low: 40-320
(Sub-woofer: < 40)
Marco
Yes, if you just look at the SPL's it looks like that. However, when you listen, adding the 475be's and cutting the 850's at 4000 hz, you get a much more precise sound. You get more information from the instruments, you hear and differentiate their timbre better. The 850's also start beaming around 4000 hz and this is also solved by the 475be's.
Do not make the mistake of just looking at SPL measurements. The balance of the whole frequency band is one and an important part of the overall sound. I do not neglect this, I achieve this via my crossovers and implementation...
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