I think that'd be a good match for what I'm making, I'd just have the passive radiators opposite on the back and have terminals hidden underneath or recessed on the back somehow. I'll try to model that when I can and get a more accurate interior volume to see if I'd have that 2.2ft³. That and I'm going to also try to model Derfnofred's suggestion.
This seems like a good deal, but I can't use a plate amp unless it's possible to have the passives mounted underneath. Is that something I can do? https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...-sb34-12-subwoofer-kit-with-passive-radiator/
Nocel--nothing fancy, just as you said. Think you can get the pdf of the factory specs (whether they're accurate or not is another detail...) off google, and plug it into any of the trillion box modelers out there. I used a 75 cm^2 vent (smidge under 4") and a 50 liter box--with the vent length, it came out to closer to 55l? Can't remember exact details, but you're going to want a vent with some area to avoid chuffing (keep it <30 m/s peak velocity IIRC?). Nothing you cannot do on a basic box simulator.
I'd probably put the woofers towards the outside of the console and look at using a slot instead of a round port (again, aesthetics), but these are minor details.
IMO, the Infinity drivers look pretty ugly, so definitely recommend grill cloth of some sort. 😀 Also, worth looking at something like an iNuke DSP, which (IIRC) cover the amplification and crossover settings appropriately. Hide it as well, since the amp looks garish, haha.
Have fun!
I'd probably put the woofers towards the outside of the console and look at using a slot instead of a round port (again, aesthetics), but these are minor details.
IMO, the Infinity drivers look pretty ugly, so definitely recommend grill cloth of some sort. 😀 Also, worth looking at something like an iNuke DSP, which (IIRC) cover the amplification and crossover settings appropriately. Hide it as well, since the amp looks garish, haha.
Have fun!
Glad to be inspiring anyone to make a similiar build! If you have any questions I'll be happy to answer. I'm no expert in speaker building though, but I really enjoy the sound of my 2 10" woofers corrected by a nanoAVR (from minidsp). I can play plenty loud without any rattling or noticeable movement in the console. Probably thanks to the very heavy and stiff oak sheets (27 mm), maybe also partly due to the counterbalanced design. Not sure about the last part as it is so heavy that I doubt that the 10" woofers would have any chance of moving the console.
/Anton
Hi onni, glad to have your help, your build made me finally decide to start working on mine. That and the purchase of a real nice router. I'm hoping to use a one inch thick sheet of solid wood for the top, bottom, and sides of my console, which is close to your 27mm oak. But it's kinda hard to get wood that thick and long here in the states without being relatively expensive. I'm curious too, what drivers are you using? You didn't go over that in your build, unless i missed it. Thanks!
It's the Seas L26ROY (here).
The wood I'm using is a counter top (for kitchen). 27 mm is standard thickness here and very cheap ($100 for 3020 mm x 625 mm = 9.9' x 2.05'). 40 mm is also available but costs more than twice as much. I chose 2x19 mm MDF for the baffle and 1x19 mm MDF for the rest of the box combined with massive bracing, all to keep bending waves to form from pressure inside the box and then propagate into the electronics department. All electronics are on foam feet to protect them and to avoid them exciting the wood (and thereby creating noise).
/Anton
I wish I could get a one inch thick sheet for just about 100. I've gone to a few lumber yards around where I live and the prices are discouraging to say the least. And if I get the wood I want, walnut, it's even more. Onni, are the seas woofers worth it to you? What do you power then with? I like how they look, and I think if I added the matching passive I could get down low, but I'm probably going to take the twelve inch route. And I think I'm going to have all my electronics on pieces of sorbothane for the same reason you have yours on foam.
Oh, and sorry for another question, what does your bracing look like? I'm going for a 3/4 inch mdf box surrounded by more 3/4 mdf and that one inch wood with bracing at the halfway points internally, but it'd help to know what you're crazy bracing consisted of.
Nocel--I'd go for plywood (esp if you can go for much less $$ paint-grade vs birch veneer because you're hiding it) as you're gunning for stiffness (have a look at Anton's FEM's to understand why), which plywood does better than MDF. Bracing is, in general and if well-connected, pound-for-pound more material efficient than thick walls. Except, perhaps, the baffle itself. Probably easiest to design the bracing post-hoc with whatever remnant pieces of wood you have left.
Also--have a look at Ikea for their butcher block countertops. Much, much MUCH more cost-effective for these big panels. Dunno if there's one in SA, though.
Anton--what is it that you do that you have a COMSOL license? (Hypocritical to ask as I sit here on my university's license as I build up some images from models for a paper...haha)
Also--have a look at Ikea for their butcher block countertops. Much, much MUCH more cost-effective for these big panels. Dunno if there's one in SA, though.
Anton--what is it that you do that you have a COMSOL license? (Hypocritical to ask as I sit here on my university's license as I build up some images from models for a paper...haha)
Yeah, I can easily do plywood instead, that's actually a good suggestion. And the box in a box is just to get the cubic footage down before adding bracing. As for Ikea, I have one close enough outside of town, but I'd probably need to cut down whatever countertop I get from them. And they only have one countertop that's real wood afaik. I'd thought about it before, I was thinking of hitting some more lumber yards before making that decision though. I just wish we could get thick wood for as cheap as what it seems like our European counterparts can get it for. I'm jealous honestly.
I totally agree that you should look at all your options and model each one. Just be aware that the T/S parameters that the driver manufacturer has published may not always be correct. As an example I tested 3 identical subwoofers that I wanted to use for a Bandpass enclosure. The drivers are well broken in and the parameters were so far off that I can't even use them for a Bandpass enclosure. The parameter differences wouldn't be a big deal when used in a sealed enclosure but would be a very bad if used in a bass reflex enclosure. It's a good idea to recalculate the T/S parameters or build prototype boxes before you start cutting up the expensive wood. Keep us posted.
Regards,
Matt
Couple of things to consider......
First....not sure why you would want to decrease enclosure volume as its this volume that will give you the needed low freq extension required for home theater. Small volumes require LOTS of power and EXPENSIVE drivers with high excursion and strong motors.
My suggestion first would be down firing for starters. The added boundary gain will increase overall output by 6db for a pair of subs. It's also the largest size panel which will allow for a 15" driver. It's also VERY easy to brace the bottom panel,to the top every 6" on square. Also down firing subs are less likely to produce audible suspension and motor noise and harmonic distortion gets lost in the wash as well. I'd strongly suggest the Dayton Ultimax 15" for your application. Using a high power Pro audio amp and a MiniDSP with a Linkwitz transform copy curcuit will get you solid flat extension to below 20hz.
So there's my two cents.......from a guy who builds Pro audio quad 18" active cardoid subwoofers in his spare time.
I think you're cabinet design is awesome BTW! I'd hate to see you compromise your design with unneccessary passive radiators and gigantic ports. Your front panels could easily hide you're left and right full Rangers behind some vintage repro grill cloth.
First....not sure why you would want to decrease enclosure volume as its this volume that will give you the needed low freq extension required for home theater. Small volumes require LOTS of power and EXPENSIVE drivers with high excursion and strong motors.
My suggestion first would be down firing for starters. The added boundary gain will increase overall output by 6db for a pair of subs. It's also the largest size panel which will allow for a 15" driver. It's also VERY easy to brace the bottom panel,to the top every 6" on square. Also down firing subs are less likely to produce audible suspension and motor noise and harmonic distortion gets lost in the wash as well. I'd strongly suggest the Dayton Ultimax 15" for your application. Using a high power Pro audio amp and a MiniDSP with a Linkwitz transform copy curcuit will get you solid flat extension to below 20hz.
So there's my two cents.......from a guy who builds Pro audio quad 18" active cardoid subwoofers in his spare time.
I think you're cabinet design is awesome BTW! I'd hate to see you compromise your design with unneccessary passive radiators and gigantic ports. Your front panels could easily hide you're left and right full Rangers behind some vintage repro grill cloth.
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Well, I decided I'm actually going with the Seas Subwoofers because they look good and I'm already using Seas drivers in a speaker build I'm doing. I'm keeping the seas designs 40l interior or going slightly larger than that. Unlike onni's however I'm going to get the pr as well and mount that on the sides. I'd kind of like to go with a 15 inch mounted underneath, but this isn't possible with the console support that I have that give it that mcm look. Plus the front mounted woofers give it that era's vintage integrated look. I think I should be able to get it decently low with those drivers combined with my small rooms gain. This'll be powered by a stereo pro amp and eq'd using a miniDSP, possibly all hidden away into the console. I've already edited my 3d mockup to reflect these choices, I just need to upload how it looks now after work.
Of course, I'm going to buy one of the L26roy and it's passive first and test that on a temporary enclosure. If it doesn't satisfy me, than I'll go ahead and increase driver size as much I can and try something else. I might need some help now coming up with bracing for the enclosure. And what pro amps do you recommend? I'd prefer something with no dsp or eq on it, or that if it has it, it's detestable. Crown has a few amps like that, but they're usually the ones with euroblock connectors, and I prefer xlr.
Of course, I'm going to buy one of the L26roy and it's passive first and test that on a temporary enclosure. If it doesn't satisfy me, than I'll go ahead and increase driver size as much I can and try something else. I might need some help now coming up with bracing for the enclosure. And what pro amps do you recommend? I'd prefer something with no dsp or eq on it, or that if it has it, it's detestable. Crown has a few amps like that, but they're usually the ones with euroblock connectors, and I prefer xlr.
understood......and if you have the amp already, by all means use it in conjunction with the miniDSP. Im going to strongly disagree with the passive radiator approach for a few reasons. One......because there is no motor, they're very nonlinear and the impulse response is horrible. Seccond, fundamental rule of thumb for high excursion drivers is double the Sd of the powered unit=passive radiator Sd...otherwise it's terribly power limiting the system. Third....with DSP you can construct a Linkwitz transform function circuit (google it) and with sufficient amplifier current in a sealed enclosure you'll achieve flat response below 20hz and be able to control the driver below Fb which is very difficult to do with a ported or passive system which needs a very steep HP filter. I equate passive radiator principles to a tricycle.....what's the point?
BTW.......you've inspired me with your mcm design to build a 2.1 stand as a gift for a dear friend of mine. Once underway, i'll link you to the progress thread. Ive gotta go pick up a 2 channel sound bar and take it apart as the core of the minimalist approach. The one im gonna us is from Vizio that has a subwoofer output so i'll use the soundbar amp to power the forward facing left and right and install a hypex plate amp with DSP in the back for the subs which i'll down fire. It will be a budget build so two 12" Infinity auto sound subwoofers should do the trick. The soundbar body with the LED displav will be fix mounted centrally for a clean look.
BTW.......you've inspired me with your mcm design to build a 2.1 stand as a gift for a dear friend of mine. Once underway, i'll link you to the progress thread. Ive gotta go pick up a 2 channel sound bar and take it apart as the core of the minimalist approach. The one im gonna us is from Vizio that has a subwoofer output so i'll use the soundbar amp to power the forward facing left and right and install a hypex plate amp with DSP in the back for the subs which i'll down fire. It will be a budget build so two 12" Infinity auto sound subwoofers should do the trick. The soundbar body with the LED displav will be fix mounted centrally for a clean look.
I agree with mayhem here, a closed box as large as possible with large woofers combined with linkwitz transform is a safe recipe for deep bass with good transient response.
The reason I went with the L26ROY in 40 liters is because I couldn't fit a larger volume and still make it look good and fit all my electronics.
/Anton
The reason I went with the L26ROY in 40 liters is because I couldn't fit a larger volume and still make it look good and fit all my electronics.
/Anton
Mayhem, I could always forgo the passive, and just do an entirely sealed like what I first designed. I really wish I could go bigger on the woofer, but I'd either need to make the console taller, which might not look as nice, or deeper to undermount, which I can't do for lack of space with the support. Getting to the low 20's or under would be awesome, but probably not achievable with what dimensions and design I've set forth for myself. However, granted that I get this built by summer, I could easily make something with bigger drivers for my family's living room.
Onni, what size would you have gone with? I have 51 liters to work with, and I can make the box the woofers are in longer. And Mayhem, you're definitely going to have to post the link to that build once you get it started. You'll probably be able to finish before me. I like the looks of built-in furniture a lot, it's too bad they don't really make furniture like that anymore, at least not without a massive price tag.
Agreed as far as hiding ports/PR's -- one could floor-fire a vent though without much visual consequence. That is part of why I suggested looking at a ML-TL alignment. (how to package your bracing in a manner that helps your system!)
Generally don't like down-firing woofers because of cone sag.
Huh, I feel like it's vents/pr vs sealed enclosures. I honestly don't know what I should choose, just that I want to go with the Seas woofer. As far as venting or keeping it sealed, I could go either way. And the passive radiator giving me a nonlinear response, couldn't that be accounted for with a miniDSP? I still have a lot to learn about subwoofers.
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