My Duettas are not very efficient, maybe 85 db/ 1W / 1m / 4 ohms, but i stick sonically on them, so i am out of the high eff group.
My Apogee Full Ranges are still waiting for reanimation with new foils, but actually no time.
Efficiency of the MR is high with the new custom made transformers, also the TW, just the woofer is around 85 dB.
As Dipoles they play louder than the direct radiation measures tell, but you do not feel them loud due the low distorsions.
New Apogee models come with Neo Magnet and are around 95dB and 4 ohms.
So choose by yourself if they are in or out, personally i am not in this league against... , i am in the league of those who listen to music with their stereo instead of creating strange threads.😀
When low efficiency lousdspeakers may dissipate an average electrical power of 1 W for 86 dB SPL, yours may dissipate ten times less.
For people not listening music at hight levels, the average SPL is about 76 dB SPL. So both low and high efficiency loudspeakers dissipate a lot less electrical power than the power amps and their sources do.
Lower harmonic distortion of the high efficiency drivers is due to their lower diaphragm travel, either because they have a large emitting area or because they are horn loaded.
I finally found that I generally had a preference for direct emitting tweeters (no wave guide) and for small diameter medium drivers.
But I won't insist upon it.
Regards
Hi gents, here is what I was thinking about. I am sure you are familiar with loudness war and all the sites on the web comparing the same song on vinyl from 70ties, and the same song on CD from 80ties, and the remaster on another CD from 2008 or so...and they use sofisticated software to compare the same song, and show histograms of distribution of low and high level signal, and compare dynamic range, all good and objective stuff.
Why am I talking about this? What if one would select well made high efficiency midrange, say 95-96 dB/w/m, or fullrange, covering perfectly 100 Hz to 2 kHz without issues...and second midrange/fullrange, well made, covering the same range, but with 84-85 dB/w/m. Then one would fed both with this range of signals selected by midrange section of digital 3 way crossover, and one would adjust the spl level on both exactly the same comfortable listening level. I repeat, the same listening level. Then one would record the same song, or selection of various music, from both drivers, and compare.
I have seen many threads here comparing signal passing OPA's, and so on, so why not two speakers...Then one would see if midrange/fullrange with massive magnet, underhung light coil, lightweight cone, and so on...in comparison to weak magnet, overhang coil, heavy cone which is hard to accelerate, and hard to stop, and so on, would produce the same dynamic music. I do not have such sofisticated software to compare two files, I only use Soundforge, but some of you may know what to use to compare two exact songs. Well, what do you think, is this doable?
Btw, I was yesterday at Strathmore concert hall, Hilary Hahn was playing Dvorak's violin concerto, boy is she good.
Why am I talking about this? What if one would select well made high efficiency midrange, say 95-96 dB/w/m, or fullrange, covering perfectly 100 Hz to 2 kHz without issues...and second midrange/fullrange, well made, covering the same range, but with 84-85 dB/w/m. Then one would fed both with this range of signals selected by midrange section of digital 3 way crossover, and one would adjust the spl level on both exactly the same comfortable listening level. I repeat, the same listening level. Then one would record the same song, or selection of various music, from both drivers, and compare.
I have seen many threads here comparing signal passing OPA's, and so on, so why not two speakers...Then one would see if midrange/fullrange with massive magnet, underhung light coil, lightweight cone, and so on...in comparison to weak magnet, overhang coil, heavy cone which is hard to accelerate, and hard to stop, and so on, would produce the same dynamic music. I do not have such sofisticated software to compare two files, I only use Soundforge, but some of you may know what to use to compare two exact songs. Well, what do you think, is this doable?
Btw, I was yesterday at Strathmore concert hall, Hilary Hahn was playing Dvorak's violin concerto, boy is she good.
My wife would not be interested in the league, she bugs me on a regular basis to get rid of my huge corner coffins. She says when I die they would be out for the garbage before the funeral arrangements were made.
After recent experiments with a pair of powered bookshelf speakers and a sub I'm thinking perhaps it is time to please my long suffering wife and get rid of the big 'uns and blow the cash on a trip.
After recent experiments with a pair of powered bookshelf speakers and a sub I'm thinking perhaps it is time to please my long suffering wife and get rid of the big 'uns and blow the cash on a trip.
The driver having the highest efficiency will probably have a larger cone,
implying different directivity patterns and break up modes.
So whatever their intrinsic quality, they will sound differently.
A heavy cone is not hard to accelerate, it just needs more force to be moved, and then more electrical power.
Heavy cones generally suffer less from severe breakup than lightweight cones.
That may be the reasons why there exists quite a lot of expensive, high quality, low efficiency drivers with powerful motoring of excellent fame.
I don't know how relevant my comment is, I am new here, and haven't been following.
Recently, I attended HIFI show, at old Windsor (just outside London) and the first room I walked into was the Elac room, on show was the Debut range, and what was playing was a small bookshelf pair on proper stands powered by new Audio alchemy amplification.
The sound was awesome considering the asking price for the pair was only £250 ! (probably $250 in US).
Andrew Jones (previously at KEF, Infinity, TAD . . .) the designer was at hand to answer questions.
He stated the efficiency for the speakers were at 85dB for 1 watt.
- I questioned him if that was a tad too low.
- Amplifier watts are cheap these days comparatively.
- Not if they are tube watts.
- No, correct, but this is budget bookshelf, we did not design it for tubes, tubes these days means big, pricey and bulky.
From a design point of view it is not easy to design a speaker to be efficient across the entire frequency band. we have to make allowances, for the size of the unit and the price bracket.
I found his argument convincing, basically horses for courses.
What I personally don't like to see, is vastly varying impedance curves, some going as low as 2ohms to 60ohms.
If the impedance is controlled and kept within +/- few ohms, most amps would have better chance at driving them.
Recently, I attended HIFI show, at old Windsor (just outside London) and the first room I walked into was the Elac room, on show was the Debut range, and what was playing was a small bookshelf pair on proper stands powered by new Audio alchemy amplification.
The sound was awesome considering the asking price for the pair was only £250 ! (probably $250 in US).
Andrew Jones (previously at KEF, Infinity, TAD . . .) the designer was at hand to answer questions.
He stated the efficiency for the speakers were at 85dB for 1 watt.
- I questioned him if that was a tad too low.
- Amplifier watts are cheap these days comparatively.
- Not if they are tube watts.
- No, correct, but this is budget bookshelf, we did not design it for tubes, tubes these days means big, pricey and bulky.
From a design point of view it is not easy to design a speaker to be efficient across the entire frequency band. we have to make allowances, for the size of the unit and the price bracket.
I found his argument convincing, basically horses for courses.
What I personally don't like to see, is vastly varying impedance curves, some going as low as 2ohms to 60ohms.
If the impedance is controlled and kept within +/- few ohms, most amps would have better chance at driving them.
KenTajjali, perfectly relevant, all opinions matter. Occasionally, I go to hifi shows as well, sometimes to rmaf, often to capitol audio fest, here in dc. I have other experience, at one of the shows I attended presentation about this revolutionary 2way consisting of 5.5" midbass and tweeter. Lecture followed with music demonstration, quite impressive for its size, and so on...however, when I was standing next to the speaker and talking to the guy, I noticed how violently the membrane was moving, even at moderate level. He was off course trying to convince me this is ok, its designed to do so. That's what it takes when you need 5.5" to move the air at 30Hz. This was meant similarly to elac not to need subwoofer. Even the membrane moved half the inch while I was next to it, the bass was not real. It did not have the visceral and natural quality to it. When I stepped back, the bass was quickly gone. Whatever bass was left, was constipated, not natural. Furthermore, while the membrane was moving like crazy, the midrange clarity suffered a lot.
In other room atmasphere amps were playing beautifully some classic high efficiency speakers, 12" woofers membrane not visibly moving, yet great relaxed bass all over the room, plus unbelievable clear mids and heights, both horn loaded.
Yes, horses for courses. Unfair comparison, I know.
In other room atmasphere amps were playing beautifully some classic high efficiency speakers, 12" woofers membrane not visibly moving, yet great relaxed bass all over the room, plus unbelievable clear mids and heights, both horn loaded.
Yes, horses for courses. Unfair comparison, I know.
I love efficient speakers. class D is for dead. I use a 15w amp on 87db speakers, btw. Works fine for most listening, but I'd prefer a more efficient speakers. Anyway, it allows very high quality sound for very little, compared to trying to make high watts sound good, $$$$.
RMAF 2011: Cessaro, TW Acustic, Thoress, Tron, Thales, Miyajima, PranaWire | Part-Time Audiophile | By Scot Hull
I was in this room while the pictures were taken, and fully agree with sound description of this system...amazing
I was in this room while the pictures were taken, and fully agree with sound description of this system...amazing
I thought the BBC designed the LS3/5a as an outside broadcast monitoring speaker for use inside their van.
The listening distance while monitoring the broadcast quality would be less than 1m.
1W into 83dB/W @ 1m would be quite loud, if your ears are only 800mm from the two speakers. They don't need kW of input power for that duty.
The listening distance while monitoring the broadcast quality would be less than 1m.
1W into 83dB/W @ 1m would be quite loud, if your ears are only 800mm from the two speakers. They don't need kW of input power for that duty.
An Observation
I have observed the following, see how many you agree with:
- The older we get, the need for very loud music begins to diminish.
- the older we get, we seem to eat less, but we insist on that food be of higher quality.
- We equally insist on the music we hear at lower volumes, be of higher quality - boom and tizz are no longer enough.
- So we get drawn towards Tube amplification, not only we find it sounding better, but also reminds us of the good old days! Also tubes, have lower power to SS (comparatively) but tend to have more finesse in what they do.
- We also seem to be able to afford quality tube amps better, or not care that much.
- As is commonly believed (I say myth) SE tube amps produce ultimate quality sound, but we do know they can not produce that many clean watts.
- Which brings us to the notion of a need for 'High efficiency speakers' to allow us to use our beloved 8W SE tube amp. So now, horn-loaded - 12" bass drivers no longer look silly.
How many did I get right?
If you are replying, please give an indication of your age, to put the answers into perspective.
Thax
I have observed the following, see how many you agree with:
- The older we get, the need for very loud music begins to diminish.
- the older we get, we seem to eat less, but we insist on that food be of higher quality.
- We equally insist on the music we hear at lower volumes, be of higher quality - boom and tizz are no longer enough.
- So we get drawn towards Tube amplification, not only we find it sounding better, but also reminds us of the good old days! Also tubes, have lower power to SS (comparatively) but tend to have more finesse in what they do.
- We also seem to be able to afford quality tube amps better, or not care that much.
- As is commonly believed (I say myth) SE tube amps produce ultimate quality sound, but we do know they can not produce that many clean watts.
- Which brings us to the notion of a need for 'High efficiency speakers' to allow us to use our beloved 8W SE tube amp. So now, horn-loaded - 12" bass drivers no longer look silly.
How many did I get right?
If you are replying, please give an indication of your age, to put the answers into perspective.
Thax
Last edited:
True, they did.
I personally do not like using anything that small, unless I am in a Van!
Never liked the LS3/5A's at any duty, nor do I like to listen to music through my phones speakers, or laptop speakers, or . . .
Given the choice, I stop, and start reading something.
I recently heard Leema's answer to the said speakers, the £1800 Leema XEN speakers (designed and built by exBBC engineers for recording studios) at only 5 litres.
Despite the highest technology used and solid Alu. front baffle, I thought they sounded awefull.
@£1800 I'll buy something from the Sonus Faber range, something a little bigger, if size was a restriction.
thanx for replying,
I suppose an indication of age of replier would put things in perspective.
I'm 55.
Most of them except the first. My HE system is driven by large tube SE amps and can achieve spls in excess of 110dB at my listening position, and does from time to time. High 90s not uncommon. I'm in my late 50s.
perhaps you'll be kind enough to say more about your SE amplifiers and speakers you use.
I'm interested.
BTW perhaps a clarification is in order.
When I said 'need for very loud music' - I did not mean that you would not occasionally go beyond 100dB (peak) as one likes to when one is in his 20's or 30's.
Couple of glasses of wine and 'Led Zeppelin' , I do push mine into clipping, but that's not every night.
Anything under 95db (peak) I consider lower volume.
Last edited:
I don't really drink wine but I never ever drive my amps anywhere near clipping.
But that happens somewhere north of 115-120dBrms so there is never any need for such drastic steps.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.