It's one I have used and really like how smooth it is and very low distortion. Nice sensitivity too. I know you like how full range driver are good mids. I use this one as a full range in a FAST system with no tweeter. It goes up to 15khz. 6khz or 7khz is nothing.
You had mentioned it already. It gets better with the simple addition of phase plugs, and of course one can go to town on it.
I have seen it used as a bass driver and as a mid-tweeter in an OB as well as a FR in an OB. I have 2 pair i plan on doing something with, some sort of 1.5 way likely.
dave
I understand your point.
But for me it's a stimulation more than an annoyance.
(wow that's a lot of ''an'' in a row, sorry about that it's annoying)
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You had mentioned it already. It gets better with the simple addition of phase plugs, and of course one can go to town on it.
I have seen it used as a bass driver and as a mid-tweeter in an OB as well as a FR in an OB. I have 2 pair i plan on doing something with, some sort of 1.5 way likely.
dave
they look nice 🙂
If you're going to use an 8" driver for the midrange then you will need to either cross over very low to a suitable tweeter (~1300Hz) or directivity match it to a wave guide and cross at about 2kHz.
You may be of the wine analogy and be someone who takes the position of 'we are not yet capable of measuring everything that correlates to good sound'. But there are technical standards that we know do equate to accurate sound reproduction.
I made a 20 cm dia. waveguide for a pr of monacor spx-21m, from speaker cones 25 cm nom. dia.. It works well with a 20 cm Vifa wf
I'm not sure if many multi-way forum's members crossed the border to see the fullrangers forum... But you should lurk a bit: they look happy!
And since the only clouds above their happiness is about the first and last octaves, we must deduct the very root of that happiness is... the Midrange.
I believe the solution with the FR drivers is to use only a slice of it. So, NOT using it as a fullrange but as a wideband midrange.
I have for years tried to understand variables that would make audio listening enjoyable. So of course I have noticed that in general FR guys are happier than multi-way guys... But i found out that midrange is not the dominant factor (so your deduction and solution to use FR as a mid in a multi-way is a bit misleading imho).
(1) Most FR are sensitive and have high impedance (the crossover in-existence makes it more so) such that small power class-A amplifier is more possible. And when we talk about class-A amps, we are talking about the nonexistence of high order harmonics and/or IMD.
(2) The level of dynamics is higher with most FR.
(3) Phase accuracy is higher with FR.
Those 3 main benefits may be lost when you put the FR as a mid in a 3-way! Very likely what you will get is higher non-linear distortion! Ha! Looking forward to seeing the result of this listening test 🙂
I said midrange quality is not the main factor because, bass is also important and (bass + average mid) is imo more preferable than (no bass + top mid). So the FR guys happiness should be caused by more than just midrange quality.
And midrange quality is very very subjective. Put more 2nd harmonics and female voice becomes sweeter and many people like that. But listen to a human voice live without amplification, register that voice into your memory and try to achieve it in your system. That's what I call midrange quality.
Steen Duelund thought that the issue with lack of "enjoyment" in multi-way is PHASE and I agree. I paid extra attention to phase but I didn't accept his crossover design approach.
Yes, but my point is not the speaker itself but the amplifier most likely used to power the speaker. You might as well use class-D amplifier (are you?) but I believe that class-A is important for enjoyment.
It is true i am using (an underpowered) Class A at the moment, but only because my Class AB amp has a noisy socket.
dave
dave
That depends on your nomenclature. Class A defines operation in which the output transistors conduct for 360 degrees of the signal. Class B defines amplifier operation in which the outputs conduct for exactly 180 degrees. Class AB defines something in between, but properly biased audio amplifiers, that would not typically classify as being class AB amplifiers are class AB amplifiers because they have a small amount of standing bias.
CF output stage amplifiers have an absolutely tiny amount of standing bias (compared to EF output stages), yet are still AB, they will have a tiny tiny amount of class A output.
Douglas Self adds in the definition optimally biased class B to describe an amplifier that hasn't had the bias turned up specifically to give it some predetermined amount of class A output (say 5 watts in a 100 watt amplifier). This is what is typically called class AB, but it is erroneous, because even the optimally biased class B amplifier is a class AB amplifier.
Even true class A amplifiers are really only class A under ideal loading and most are only specified to operate in full class A with 8 or 6 ohm loads.
Well that went off topic.
I prefer class A if it's viable, which one of the advantages of high sensitivity being that it usually allows the use of small high quality amps that are less expensive.
If line arrays are on the menu....
Line Arrays....Now this gets interesting😉
I dont believe any single wide band driver can produce life like SPL's accurately over the specified 300Hz to 7KHz range.....But if you are going to use an array then there are a few good candidates:
The best off the shelf driver I have used is this 6.5 inch PHL :
http://phlaudio.com/no_cache/uk/phl-audio/products/fiche-pdf/index.html?user_productsdb_pi1[uid]=40
This driver will struggle to meet the 300Hz to 7KHz bandwidth, but is great over the 500Hz to 5KHz decade.
PHL have recently expanded their whole range and there are several new 6.5 inch drivers section that look good on paper but I have not tried them.
My new silk surround 4.5 inch BMR offers a superior performance as a true wide band ie 200Hz to 20KHz with no extra tweeter.
Also as a line array driver my BMR is the best I know of.
I have attached a CSD plot which shows the sub 1ms decay time.....This is astonishing and is the key (along with superb power response) to its life like sound.
But if you are building a conventional 3 or 4 way single driver per band, then the PHL is the one to go for as it can meet the 80dB to 90dB average with 110dB peak criteria for life like dynamics.
Using pink noise, our single BMR will hold 98dB continuous SPL with 104dB peaks when crossed over at 250Hz using our DSP crossover with 60dB per octave slopes.
If you are building line arrays then my BMR is the best choice, after all your other testing is done I might be able to arrange for a pair to be shipped over for a 14 day trial as I have a few USA guys interested in testing them as well.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
PS Cant remember who said that all driver sound the same if Eq'd flat on axis, but thats rubbish!
I can Eq just about any driver to be flat over its bandwidth and it will sound totally different to another driver Eq'd to have an identical flat frequency response....Its all about the time domain (best illustrated by the CSD plot) not the frequency domain.
Line Arrays....Now this gets interesting😉
I dont believe any single wide band driver can produce life like SPL's accurately over the specified 300Hz to 7KHz range.....But if you are going to use an array then there are a few good candidates:
The best off the shelf driver I have used is this 6.5 inch PHL :
http://phlaudio.com/no_cache/uk/phl-audio/products/fiche-pdf/index.html?user_productsdb_pi1[uid]=40
This driver will struggle to meet the 300Hz to 7KHz bandwidth, but is great over the 500Hz to 5KHz decade.
PHL have recently expanded their whole range and there are several new 6.5 inch drivers section that look good on paper but I have not tried them.
My new silk surround 4.5 inch BMR offers a superior performance as a true wide band ie 200Hz to 20KHz with no extra tweeter.
Also as a line array driver my BMR is the best I know of.
I have attached a CSD plot which shows the sub 1ms decay time.....This is astonishing and is the key (along with superb power response) to its life like sound.
But if you are building a conventional 3 or 4 way single driver per band, then the PHL is the one to go for as it can meet the 80dB to 90dB average with 110dB peak criteria for life like dynamics.
Using pink noise, our single BMR will hold 98dB continuous SPL with 104dB peaks when crossed over at 250Hz using our DSP crossover with 60dB per octave slopes.
If you are building line arrays then my BMR is the best choice, after all your other testing is done I might be able to arrange for a pair to be shipped over for a 14 day trial as I have a few USA guys interested in testing them as well.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
PS Cant remember who said that all driver sound the same if Eq'd flat on axis, but thats rubbish!
I can Eq just about any driver to be flat over its bandwidth and it will sound totally different to another driver Eq'd to have an identical flat frequency response....Its all about the time domain (best illustrated by the CSD plot) not the frequency domain.
Yeah, we just built some massive array-like speakers (500kg, 5 meters tall, 70 transducers total) and its kind of fun but unfortunately the acoustics of the place is nothing like a domestic environment. Impossible to draw real conclusions. So i'm not (yet) convinced to change my home system for line arrays. But still, like i said, it's fun. Was fun to built that's for sure. 😎
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I don't know why one would want to do that with a B200 ?
Directivity issue, i understand very well, but Visaton designed this transducer in order to be used as a wideband (or FR)
I think it's pretty good fun in the living room!
And with some processing it can get pretty good results
Left and right frequency balance as measured at the listening position, 1/12 oct smoothing.
It's all about the midrange right? 😉
More here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
And with some processing it can get pretty good results
Left and right frequency balance as measured at the listening position, 1/12 oct smoothing.
It's all about the midrange right? 😉
More here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
I think it's pretty good fun in the living room!
And with some processing it can get pretty good results
Left and right frequency balance as measured at the listening position, 1/12 oct smoothing.
It's all about the midrange right? 😉
More here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
Nice 🙂 But what about comb filtering?