From the Artisan Sound engine webpage.
I knewed I red that somewhere!
So, what for d you have to worry.
You have a fix for your line in problem, you know your amp will reproduce 16hz, just down a few db. You know from playing n organ that it will require regulation and voicing to get set up correctly.
You have the parts. And young, middle aged and long in the tooth advisers.
Press on!
Fear not.
I've also had the impression things got a little more complicated than they needed to be in a few places, looooooool
That is not desirable at all - I suggest you need a different amp. For instance, the amps I use are specced at 1dB down @ 10Hz.
What power does your Crown XLS produce?
Andy
You didn't tell me what power your XLS has but, Googling it, they range from 350w into 4 ohms - 775w into 4ohms. So the amps I use may not be powerful enough for you.
For the last 15 years I have used AKSA amps - see here: Aspen Amplifiers
Unfortunately, Hugh (the designer) is very slack with keeping his website up to date and he does not have any news about his latest model - the NAKSA 200 (which is 350w into 4 ohms). All his other models - including the N80s and Sorayas that I have - are less power.
Hugh started off just selling kit amps but for the last 8 years or so, he can supply fully-built amps ... again, his web-site is not particularly helpful about this.
Good luck, anyway - can you find a "DC coupled" amp in your power rating? These do not have any cap-induced LF roll-off (as they prevent DC offset by another means) and would therefor be ideal for 16Hz.
Regards,
Andy
1955 Benchmark: 60 years of progress
Attached is FR taken 5 minutes ago, of famous 1955 AR-1, 16-64 Hz. EQ shaved off 5 dB at 50 Hz. With EQ, not off more than plus or minus 4 dB, 16-64 Hz or just a bit worse without EQ using only 1/12 smoothing. Chart SPL not calibrated.
THD about 35 dB down at all frequencies and some of that is road traffic and city noise. Now that's meaningful to me!
Amp is SWTP 60 watt, using AC coupled with low freq roll-off*, about 1960, in sorry state of maintenance, but I'm pretty sure most of the transistors are OK.
Mic on sitting position, not stuck next to box or tweaked location.
Good benchmark? Highlighting 60 years of progress.
Ben
*Should I solder in a larger capacitor?
Attached is FR taken 5 minutes ago, of famous 1955 AR-1, 16-64 Hz. EQ shaved off 5 dB at 50 Hz. With EQ, not off more than plus or minus 4 dB, 16-64 Hz or just a bit worse without EQ using only 1/12 smoothing. Chart SPL not calibrated.
THD about 35 dB down at all frequencies and some of that is road traffic and city noise. Now that's meaningful to me!
Amp is SWTP 60 watt, using AC coupled with low freq roll-off*, about 1960, in sorry state of maintenance, but I'm pretty sure most of the transistors are OK.
Mic on sitting position, not stuck next to box or tweaked location.
Good benchmark? Highlighting 60 years of progress.
Ben
*Should I solder in a larger capacitor?
Attachments
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How to extend the high pass filter below 20hz in DCX2496 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
People are using iNukes successfully down to very low frequencies for HT.
People are using iNukes successfully down to very low frequencies for HT.
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Ooooooooops. I plum forgot to mention I had one of those DCX2496's in the signal path too (and it provided the EQ). Must have chopped off 10000000 dB from my low freq response at 16 Hz.
Anybody think my 16-64 curve was destroyed by having one of those cursed DCX2496's right in the signal path? Anybody think the complex changes needed to "fix" the DCX2496 will be worth the effort?
I hope I have dispelled any wretched anxieties about amps and the DCX2496. They are not harming my response with a 60 yr old speaker and I don't think they are going to harm Bach On's either.
Too many posters know just enough about acoustics and electronics to get into errors.
Ben
OK. That's pretty neat. Now I need to read it about 26 more times to better understand it. I also need to come up with the bucks to buy it.
But thanks for sharing. It does sound like a viable work-around for the amp rolloff I'm looking at.
But I'm still hopeful we can overcome that through the software that comes with our Sound Engine.
Bach On
BTW - this thread has been going on since April 11th of this year. We're coming up on 90 pages. I'm just so appreciative of all the many suggestions, answers, hair brained ideas and general enthusiasm and encouragement from everyone here. I'm certain the bass on our new system would be nowhere nearly as good withiout the helpful input I've received here. I mentioned this thread to a friend. He said, "Who has time to wade through 90 pages?" Thanks to all who have hung in there throughout
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Funny thing, actually..... I really wasn't supposing you wanted to go looking for an AR-1 that hasn't been made since 1955* and a 60 watt kit amp. No kidding.
But I did think this thread needed some grounding.
Ben
*Lots of luck, eh.
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That's a liiiiiitle misleading with 10db graduations, but I won't derail over it..just though it was interesting.
Nothing the least bit "misleading". The data resolution is finer than the eye can read regardless of the gradations; and your eye can easily judge maybe 1 dB on your computer screen. Precise enough for DrDyna looking at a 1955 1.4 cu foot sealed box speaker?
10 dB chosen so that the 35 dB down* distortion can be shown.
Too much smoothing can be misleading by averaging out peaks and valleys. How about re-posting your chart but this time showing 1/12 smoothing (which only averages out the "noise"). And distortion.
Ben
*"35 down" (which is like 1.8% THD and noise and remarkable for a sub, even one less than 60 yrs old) is the total distortion of the speaker as well as garbage contributed by my mic, ancient amp, maybe 60 feet of plain quality cables, Behringer mixer, DAC, Behringer DCX2496, Adcom pre-amp, and ready for this.... the crummy headphone output of my laptop. ALL of those simultaneously in the measurement loop and the speaker are 35 dB down.
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I'm just doing a little research after reading the link on using the Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496 to overcome rolloff in frequencies below 20 Hertz. It's about $300 from Musicians Friend.
One issue we will face is that the Crown amps on our upgraded organ will be plugged into a module that will turn them all off when the organ is turned off. That means the electrical power to the units will be interrupted as if they were unplugged. There will be no stand-by mode with low power. NO POWER will go to the units when the organ is turned off. The Sound Engine (which is actually a computer) will be plugged into a different circuit. It will be plugged into an uninterruptible power supply.
In testing, I found that the Crown Amps retain the last settings entered into them (such as crossover point, whether to Bypass the crossover or whether to use a Lowpass or Highpass filter). It's probable that there is a finite limit on how long the settings will be retained without power, but they aren't lostt over periods of a week or so. That is good since it would be a pain to have to go and reset these parameters every time the organ is turned on.
I do not have any experience with the Behringer DCX2496. If you have one, can you tell me if it retains the last settings when it is unplugged?
Thanks!
Bach On
One issue we will face is that the Crown amps on our upgraded organ will be plugged into a module that will turn them all off when the organ is turned off. That means the electrical power to the units will be interrupted as if they were unplugged. There will be no stand-by mode with low power. NO POWER will go to the units when the organ is turned off. The Sound Engine (which is actually a computer) will be plugged into a different circuit. It will be plugged into an uninterruptible power supply.
In testing, I found that the Crown Amps retain the last settings entered into them (such as crossover point, whether to Bypass the crossover or whether to use a Lowpass or Highpass filter). It's probable that there is a finite limit on how long the settings will be retained without power, but they aren't lostt over periods of a week or so. That is good since it would be a pain to have to go and reset these parameters every time the organ is turned on.
I do not have any experience with the Behringer DCX2496. If you have one, can you tell me if it retains the last settings when it is unplugged?
Thanks!
Bach On
It probably stores the settings in some kind of non-volatile memory, if I had to guess I'd say the settings should stick for many months or years before resetting. The DCX also retains settings when turned off, and also offers the ability to save/recall settings, so you could even just back up the config file onto a thumbdrive stored safely, in case you need to load the settings quickly in the event of failure, or replacement.
I sure recommend you wire up the basic system and SEE if you have any deficiencies you really, really want to fix by complicated means. Maybe you'll have too much box resonance at 16 Hz and will need to taper off some. Test.
Ordinarily, when a manufacturer has low-end protection, it isn't anything special. Just some simple capacitor that keeps DC and frequencies above at bay. As I said earlier, these caps are very loosely rated and hence often vastly over-sized. Ill-informed people are talking as it there's some kind of precise EQ that rolls off spot-on at 18 Hz and plays nothing below.
I can't believe that people righteously put forth silly arguments about inconceivably fussy fixes without figuring out if there's a practical problem other than in theoretical simulations of the chain of pieces.
Yes, DCX2496 retains memory. Exceedingly long learning curve for new users. Likely to make many mistakes for weeks. DAMHIK*.
Ben
*and after two yrs, still making mistakes; but I think it is a truly indispensable tool for home HiFi
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Use a serial cable and an older laptop to config the dcx with behringer's software, it's way way easier.
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As Ben, and a few others have also advised.
Hook er up and let er rip.
Do the mod on the rolls box, as the roll offs do accumulate.
It is relatively simple.
Back when I had hair I did repair for a living for a while in between doing design work.
And if I get the idea straight, Zero D is also an engineer.
At the very least he knows what he is talking about.
Hook er up and let er rip.
Do the mod on the rolls box, as the roll offs do accumulate.
It is relatively simple.
Back when I had hair I did repair for a living for a while in between doing design work.
And if I get the idea straight, Zero D is also an engineer.
At the very least he knows what he is talking about.
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