I did the tree trimming last month. Made 8 trips to the landfill with debris. I feel your pain.Hi BO,
Keep on beating on it. I have the pleasure of yard work and tree trimming today.
Regards,
Just ran over something with the lawnmower. Have bent one of the blades or spindles. Too hot to diagnose now. But will have to repair PDQ or the poor puppies may be in danger again.
I'll keep on keeping on, but I've got to clear things up tonight for church.
BO
Below is a link to a system we setup in my wife's church. It uses an active crossover with the L and R inputs coming from the main mixer stereo buss and the LFE input to the crossover coming from the organ output. Plenty of output at any frequency with a 500W amplifier. In room response is -3dB at about 18Hz.
Crazy subwoofers!
We could have built something "better", but the drivers, crossover and amplifier were all free. It took one day to build the cabinets and test them. A second day was needed for setup and tuning.
Crazy subwoofers!
We could have built something "better", but the drivers, crossover and amplifier were all free. It took one day to build the cabinets and test them. A second day was needed for setup and tuning.
Nice indeed with compromises that just don't matter all that much (like cabinet stiffness) in the great scheme of getting on with the job.
The design of sealed boxes doesn't need to be fussed over since there is only one parameter (or 1.5, counting stuffing) and just a matter of how you choose the trade-offs that come along with variation in box volume.
The 30-inch EV is an example of stuff that today a lot of us would consider inadequate gear offered by commercial companies - as discussed earlier here. Probably sounded good until people heard the low notes from your new woofer.
BTW, Cathedral of St. John the Divine (biggest stone building) has a fabulous set of reeds at the far end under the rose window.
Ben
Isobarics are a waste of a good driver.
I have been there and done that a long time ago. The only place they have any real application is shrinking the size of box required in a car. I have built them for indoor use and that was almost 25 years ago the last time I did it. Your better off to do a 6th order vented enclosure and use a little eq just above your cutoff frequency in a vented box.
They add nothing to the output capability.
You would be far better to slap a second HT 18 into the existing corner box and work from there.
But what we have is a partially functional system. And it aint done yet!
As for louder in the pipe chamber.
I'm pretty sure the pipes are louder in the pipe chamber to.
I have been there and done that a long time ago. The only place they have any real application is shrinking the size of box required in a car. I have built them for indoor use and that was almost 25 years ago the last time I did it. Your better off to do a 6th order vented enclosure and use a little eq just above your cutoff frequency in a vented box.
They add nothing to the output capability.
You would be far better to slap a second HT 18 into the existing corner box and work from there.
But what we have is a partially functional system. And it aint done yet!
As for louder in the pipe chamber.
I'm pretty sure the pipes are louder in the pipe chamber to.
Looks like very nice work, Jack. What kind of organ is it? How large is the room?
Bach On
I don't think the construction of the corner cabinet will lend itself to another driver.
I am aware we've only got one pants leg on. I hope to change that ASAP. Both bass boxes playing together improved the sound in my earlier testing.
There is about an 18 inch knee wall below the shades. There's a similar but larger area above the shades. And there are walls on either side. I figure that all these surfaces are reflecting sound. I'm wondering if a larger opening and shades running closer to the floor and ceiling to eliminate those two reflective areas would result in more sound exiting the chamber?
This not only lowers the SPL of the speakers, but the pipes too. It's like hiding a solar house in a grove of evergreen trees. And it has been like this since the organ was installed back in 1928.
BTW, we've got a man in his 90's who grew up in our church. He remembers being one of the boys who went into the basement to pump the organ before rural electrification. This program took place in the 1930s and resulted in electric power for the church. It was then that they changed to an electric blower.
Bach On
Well progress it is indeed when you don't need a hand pumper for your organ.
I'm still thinking it will work out for you.
The reference to adding a second woofer to your triangular box was only a comparison. After I posted it I thought it would not be an easy thing to do either. It's pretty tight in there. And the top part of the box is pretty much where you would have to do the work. If I remember correctly quite a lot of joinery is involved in the junction between the two parts.
I'm still thinking it will work out for you.
The reference to adding a second woofer to your triangular box was only a comparison. After I posted it I thought it would not be an easy thing to do either. It's pretty tight in there. And the top part of the box is pretty much where you would have to do the work. If I remember correctly quite a lot of joinery is involved in the junction between the two parts.
Hi Mark,
Post #1084: "Isobarics are a waste of a good driver...The only place they have any real application is shrinking the size of box..."
Agreed.
Remember though, that we started into this w/ specific external box dimensions. If it turns out that these drivers just will not reach the 16Hz @ a respectable SPL with these size limitations, then isobaric may well be one possible answer (I said in Post #1076: "...I don't really want to go there.."). Or, go sealed, dual driver, some kind of Linkwitz transform type of equalization.
I hope none of that will be necessary.
Regards,
Post #1084: "Isobarics are a waste of a good driver...The only place they have any real application is shrinking the size of box..."
Agreed.
Remember though, that we started into this w/ specific external box dimensions. If it turns out that these drivers just will not reach the 16Hz @ a respectable SPL with these size limitations, then isobaric may well be one possible answer (I said in Post #1076: "...I don't really want to go there.."). Or, go sealed, dual driver, some kind of Linkwitz transform type of equalization.
I hope none of that will be necessary.
Regards,
Hello to All,
I have not posted in quite some time. We got the Artisan Digital Voices installed on our pipe organ in November of last year. Many here had helped with ideas and suggestions. I built two relatively large base cabinets to handle the pedal sounds. The question was how well these cabinets would do with 12 speakers handling higher frequencies from the manuals.
I'm pleased to report that both of these cabinets have performed very well. The bass is solid without being boomy or overpowering. The pair can reproduce sounds down to 16 hertz with aplomb. The triangular cabinet with the 18 inch driver seems more comfortable with the lowest sounds. And the cabinet with the twin 15 inch Dayton drivers handles the balance of sounds. Both cabinets work well together. I have each on a separate amp circuit so each can be adjusted independently.
The Artisan Sound system allows note-by-note volume adjustment. I've been able to use that to get a more consistent volume for each note of each digital organ stop.
I've experimented with a number of different stops to find the right ones for the other voices on the organ. The overtones and partials of the pedals are being well supplied by the Allen HR100 speaker. It contains a 12 inch driver and a horn. The crossover point for this circuit is around 96 Hertz. It gets every pedal sound over that.
Some may recall that both the low bass cabinets were a ported design provided to me by one of the regular posters on this site. They have proven to be very effective at their jobs.
There was a concern that having them in the rear of our speaker chamber with the other speakers out front might reduce the bass that could be heard in the congregational seating area. I won't deny that some bass is lost. But the balance seems to work well for a very pleasing final balance of the organ.
I wish to once again express my appreciation to everyone who advised, discussed and encouraged me in this project. I'm pleased to say that the refurbished Allen HC12 speakers and the Allen PP3 speakers used for the manuals (keyboards) do an excellent job. They are organ speakers and are very well suited for the sounds they are being asked to reproduce.
The only negative has been some rattles of the pipes and in the walls and floors. I've steadily worked to find the sources of these and eliminate them. I haven't yet eliminated all of them, but I've been able to get them reduced significantly. This will continue to be a goal and a work in progress for the coming months.
I, as the organist, the choir and the congregation seem pleased at the enhanced sounds from the organ. Making the decision to have the speakers play at full volume - just like the pipes do - has helped with voicing and blend.
We've recently installed a potentiometer that allows adjusting the pitch of the digital sounds to match the pitches of the pipes. Room temperature can change the pitch of the pipes. It has no effect on the digital sounds. This pot allows adjustments to work around this problem so they sound in tune when played together.
The final budget came out a few dollars short of $32,000. But the majority of that was for the work on the organ console.
It was $24,506 dollars for the console work; the Artisan equipment was $2,850; there was about $1,250 in carpentry, speaker wiring, an uninterruptible power supply for the digital sound system, and various electrical items. The rest was for amps, a music rack for them, a video monitor, mouse, keyboard and speakers.
The console work included the installation of a MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) system to communicate with the digital sound package. My only complaint is that the MIDI package that was installed in the console just cannot keep up with very fast passages coming from an external sequencer, such as a computer. I'm exploring options to work around this.
Anyway, I thought I'd provide a report for anyone who might care.
Thanks again!
Bach On
I have not posted in quite some time. We got the Artisan Digital Voices installed on our pipe organ in November of last year. Many here had helped with ideas and suggestions. I built two relatively large base cabinets to handle the pedal sounds. The question was how well these cabinets would do with 12 speakers handling higher frequencies from the manuals.
I'm pleased to report that both of these cabinets have performed very well. The bass is solid without being boomy or overpowering. The pair can reproduce sounds down to 16 hertz with aplomb. The triangular cabinet with the 18 inch driver seems more comfortable with the lowest sounds. And the cabinet with the twin 15 inch Dayton drivers handles the balance of sounds. Both cabinets work well together. I have each on a separate amp circuit so each can be adjusted independently.
The Artisan Sound system allows note-by-note volume adjustment. I've been able to use that to get a more consistent volume for each note of each digital organ stop.
I've experimented with a number of different stops to find the right ones for the other voices on the organ. The overtones and partials of the pedals are being well supplied by the Allen HR100 speaker. It contains a 12 inch driver and a horn. The crossover point for this circuit is around 96 Hertz. It gets every pedal sound over that.
Some may recall that both the low bass cabinets were a ported design provided to me by one of the regular posters on this site. They have proven to be very effective at their jobs.
There was a concern that having them in the rear of our speaker chamber with the other speakers out front might reduce the bass that could be heard in the congregational seating area. I won't deny that some bass is lost. But the balance seems to work well for a very pleasing final balance of the organ.
I wish to once again express my appreciation to everyone who advised, discussed and encouraged me in this project. I'm pleased to say that the refurbished Allen HC12 speakers and the Allen PP3 speakers used for the manuals (keyboards) do an excellent job. They are organ speakers and are very well suited for the sounds they are being asked to reproduce.
The only negative has been some rattles of the pipes and in the walls and floors. I've steadily worked to find the sources of these and eliminate them. I haven't yet eliminated all of them, but I've been able to get them reduced significantly. This will continue to be a goal and a work in progress for the coming months.
I, as the organist, the choir and the congregation seem pleased at the enhanced sounds from the organ. Making the decision to have the speakers play at full volume - just like the pipes do - has helped with voicing and blend.
We've recently installed a potentiometer that allows adjusting the pitch of the digital sounds to match the pitches of the pipes. Room temperature can change the pitch of the pipes. It has no effect on the digital sounds. This pot allows adjustments to work around this problem so they sound in tune when played together.
The final budget came out a few dollars short of $32,000. But the majority of that was for the work on the organ console.
It was $24,506 dollars for the console work; the Artisan equipment was $2,850; there was about $1,250 in carpentry, speaker wiring, an uninterruptible power supply for the digital sound system, and various electrical items. The rest was for amps, a music rack for them, a video monitor, mouse, keyboard and speakers.
The console work included the installation of a MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) system to communicate with the digital sound package. My only complaint is that the MIDI package that was installed in the console just cannot keep up with very fast passages coming from an external sequencer, such as a computer. I'm exploring options to work around this.
Anyway, I thought I'd provide a report for anyone who might care.
Thanks again!
Bach On
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Wonderful. Extra nice considering the all the frustrations at the end (including health!).
Now is time for measurements.
1. Should be easy enough to connect an amp directly to each sub-woofer and do frequency runs with REW. That would be great to see.
2. At the least and with no fuss at all, you could do real-time analysis. After choosing a flute-like stop, just hold your lowest pedals and show the resulting frequency analysis. Once you unpack the laptop and mic, ought to take about 10 minutes.
Big project and happy ending. Thanks for posting outcome. And looking forward to measurements.
Ben
Now is time for measurements.
1. Should be easy enough to connect an amp directly to each sub-woofer and do frequency runs with REW. That would be great to see.
2. At the least and with no fuss at all, you could do real-time analysis. After choosing a flute-like stop, just hold your lowest pedals and show the resulting frequency analysis. Once you unpack the laptop and mic, ought to take about 10 minutes.
Big project and happy ending. Thanks for posting outcome. And looking forward to measurements.
Ben
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The credit goes to Oliver. I came in the mix way after he did the design work that performs so well.
I had fun poking fun.
And I'd do it all over again in a heart beat.
Ben,
You never let up on wanting those measurements
BO
To say it plainly, time to back up your pride in your accomplishment with some measurements we can assess.
At this point, a lot of effort has been devoted to your project by well-meaning members over many months. But without meaningful measurements, we have learned exactly nothing from all the efforts that have gone into your project except how happy you are.
You are free to say to us, "get lost, I'm outta here". Or you can provide us with some measure of objective feedback so we can learn something.
Your choice.
Ben
Footnote: this kind of large-space project is rare to see for this forum; so I'm sure a lot of us who provided what can be generously called "conjectural advice" would really like to see how things turned out; I've asked this here before, but isn't there anybody who lives in that region who can help in-person?
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Hi mwmkravchenko
I would be very interested to learn more about your 14 Hz horn as I could like to build a single driver version of it for domestic use.
Many thanks
darkmatter
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