The Art of Measurement
First.... you connect the all the electric pieces of the music system and the measurement system (excepting mic) in a big loop back into REW. Typically, that should prove you have noise and distortion at miniscule levels and the frequency response is flat well beyond what you need.
If it that doesn't prove to be the case, you fix it.
Then you proceed with the acoustic measurements.
The reason I pooh-pooh all the little issues (and I certainly pooh-pooh the notion that Bach On will want to solder stuff into his new gear) is that once you see the mic results all the little perturbations upstream will seem entirely trivial in comparison to the acoustic measurement maelstrom.*
Ben
*ummm, what parameters to vary in a sim to account for the maelstrom?
Ben
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Anticipating that I can use the XLS1500 in regular mode without bridging, I anticipate the amp setup as follows:
1. First Crown XLS1000 - Bypassing the crossover. Sending inputs 1 and 2 from the Artisan Sound Engine to two of the Allen HC12 speakers.
2. Second Crown XLS1000 - Bypassing the crossover. Sending inputs 3 and 4 to two more HC12s.
3. Third Crown XLS1000 - Bypassing the crossover. Sending inputs 5 and 6 to two more HC12s.
4. Fourth Crown XLS1000 - Setting the crossover point around 96 Hertz with the amp set for HIGHPASS. Sending a single Output to the Allen HR100 (rated for 40 to 20K Hertz). This amp will get the signal from channel 7 of the Sound Engine. It should take care of upper bass, overtones, and partials.
5. Crown XLS1500 - Setting the crossover point around 96 Hertz with the amp set for LOWPASS. Sending channel 1 to the original bass cabinet with the two Dayton 15 inch woofers. Sending channel 2 to the new triangular cabinet. This SHOULD allow me to adjust the gain for each of these two cabinets independently. The single input to this amp will be channel 8 from the Sound Engine.
If we do discover that the single XLS1500 is inadequate to power the two low bass cabinets for long-term use, I can later add an additional amp (power not yet known) and use a similar crossover point. It could be used to power the new triangular box - or whatever.
JAG - early on in this thread stated a view that using full-range speakers like the older HC12s was occupying valuable real estate in the speaker chamber at the expense of space needed for bass speakers. But at least some of the stops we've ordered will be routed to these speakers are in the 16 foot range. These speakers do have 15 inch woofers to take care of any of lower frequencies for those organ stops.
JAG also raised the very real issue of having all of the HC12 speakers crammed into a small area. For one thing, the speakers may (probably will) interact and interfere with each other. Too, any sense of separation will be absent or at least significantly reduced with them so close to one another. These are very real and accurate observations.
A simple driving fact is that we have a cash flow issue. The bid for the work on the console to enable it to work with the new sound engine came out considerably higher than expected. Just the console work is going to cost us over $26,000. I had to go back to our church council and ask for more money. And there are people on the church council who participate in a contemporary service that does not use the organ at all. So it was a selling job to get the budget increased by $2,500. In addition, I've spent well over a thousand dollars out of my own pocket. Add the cost of the amps, installing a door to the speaker chamber, sheetrock and insulation for the pipe chamber and a host of other things.
For a project like this, speakers are normally the last place it is wise on which to cut corners. I have been and still am well aware of that. But we did not have the budget to buy new speakers AND HAVE THE CONSOLE WORK DONE, BUY THE AMPS, BUY THE SOUND ENGINE, ETC. These older Allen speakers are - as JAG said - "antiques" by the standards of many. They are not very efficient by modern standards. And they are larger than many very fine speakers currently available. But they have an excellent sound.
After the initial work is done - within the allotted budget, the organ fund will be depleted. But we do have people who will continue to make contributions that will replenish that fund over time. I can then replace the speakers 2 at a time and stay within the amount of available cash. It's going to be a lot easier to find a thousand here and there than to come up with the $26,000 to do the console work.
I do have the Allen Presence Presenters that can be tied into each of the HC12 channels. I bought ceiling and wall mounts that will allow these speakers to be spread out in a wider pattern in the pipe chamber. This should provide at least a little bit more separation.
I have received lots of advice since I first posted my request for assistance - I think back in February. And I have very much appreciated ALL the input I have received. I have not used all the advice. And I'm sure that some (maybe all) feel the pace of progress has been glacial. But this project is scheduled to go live in about a month.
Had I held out for new and better speakers - it would not have happened at all.
Bach On
P.S. I'm going to respectfully request that Ben and JAG to suspend hostilities within this thread. You guys just disagree. Accept it and move on. I think everyone else has.
1. First Crown XLS1000 - Bypassing the crossover. Sending inputs 1 and 2 from the Artisan Sound Engine to two of the Allen HC12 speakers.
2. Second Crown XLS1000 - Bypassing the crossover. Sending inputs 3 and 4 to two more HC12s.
3. Third Crown XLS1000 - Bypassing the crossover. Sending inputs 5 and 6 to two more HC12s.
4. Fourth Crown XLS1000 - Setting the crossover point around 96 Hertz with the amp set for HIGHPASS. Sending a single Output to the Allen HR100 (rated for 40 to 20K Hertz). This amp will get the signal from channel 7 of the Sound Engine. It should take care of upper bass, overtones, and partials.
5. Crown XLS1500 - Setting the crossover point around 96 Hertz with the amp set for LOWPASS. Sending channel 1 to the original bass cabinet with the two Dayton 15 inch woofers. Sending channel 2 to the new triangular cabinet. This SHOULD allow me to adjust the gain for each of these two cabinets independently. The single input to this amp will be channel 8 from the Sound Engine.
If we do discover that the single XLS1500 is inadequate to power the two low bass cabinets for long-term use, I can later add an additional amp (power not yet known) and use a similar crossover point. It could be used to power the new triangular box - or whatever.
JAG - early on in this thread stated a view that using full-range speakers like the older HC12s was occupying valuable real estate in the speaker chamber at the expense of space needed for bass speakers. But at least some of the stops we've ordered will be routed to these speakers are in the 16 foot range. These speakers do have 15 inch woofers to take care of any of lower frequencies for those organ stops.
JAG also raised the very real issue of having all of the HC12 speakers crammed into a small area. For one thing, the speakers may (probably will) interact and interfere with each other. Too, any sense of separation will be absent or at least significantly reduced with them so close to one another. These are very real and accurate observations.
A simple driving fact is that we have a cash flow issue. The bid for the work on the console to enable it to work with the new sound engine came out considerably higher than expected. Just the console work is going to cost us over $26,000. I had to go back to our church council and ask for more money. And there are people on the church council who participate in a contemporary service that does not use the organ at all. So it was a selling job to get the budget increased by $2,500. In addition, I've spent well over a thousand dollars out of my own pocket. Add the cost of the amps, installing a door to the speaker chamber, sheetrock and insulation for the pipe chamber and a host of other things.
For a project like this, speakers are normally the last place it is wise on which to cut corners. I have been and still am well aware of that. But we did not have the budget to buy new speakers AND HAVE THE CONSOLE WORK DONE, BUY THE AMPS, BUY THE SOUND ENGINE, ETC. These older Allen speakers are - as JAG said - "antiques" by the standards of many. They are not very efficient by modern standards. And they are larger than many very fine speakers currently available. But they have an excellent sound.
After the initial work is done - within the allotted budget, the organ fund will be depleted. But we do have people who will continue to make contributions that will replenish that fund over time. I can then replace the speakers 2 at a time and stay within the amount of available cash. It's going to be a lot easier to find a thousand here and there than to come up with the $26,000 to do the console work.
I do have the Allen Presence Presenters that can be tied into each of the HC12 channels. I bought ceiling and wall mounts that will allow these speakers to be spread out in a wider pattern in the pipe chamber. This should provide at least a little bit more separation.
I have received lots of advice since I first posted my request for assistance - I think back in February. And I have very much appreciated ALL the input I have received. I have not used all the advice. And I'm sure that some (maybe all) feel the pace of progress has been glacial. But this project is scheduled to go live in about a month.
Had I held out for new and better speakers - it would not have happened at all.
Bach On
P.S. I'm going to respectfully request that Ben and JAG to suspend hostilities within this thread. You guys just disagree. Accept it and move on. I think everyone else has.
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Good. Just remember that my nickname is not Pork Chop or Bacon - even if I am carrying around a few too many extra pounds. 🙄
BO
BO
WHAT?!?
Now you want the simulator the include the effect of all the upstream components?
At this point you are either being facetious or have no idea what a simulator actually does.
And no, this stuff is not trivial, a 6 db rolloff from a single component is a HUGE deal.
At this point it's pretty clear you intend to list EVERY SINGLE THING a simulator is not designed to do, and you appear to be really upset that simulators are not onmiscient beings that can answer any question. That's not what they are designed to do.
I've backed up everything I've said with loads of evidence. Ben refuses to talk in technical terms and has only offered advice which would guarantee your project would fail and seems now to be asking increasingly ridiculous questions about simulators that don't even make any sense.
At this point I think Ben has shown that his technical level of knowledge is remarkably inadequate, so there's probably not much point in me pointing out that almost every thing he says is incorrect. So once again I'll leave you guys to it. Have fun.
I can't think of any mixer etc, that won't need to be modified. The alternative is to build one. I can design a Very simple & Very low cost one that would do exactly what you want. But unless you or someone you know could build it, it's out of the question. And @ this late stage, probably not going to happen. So changing the caps in a ready built unit is the way to go right now.
Bach On,
Behringer mixers don't have the bass cutoff that the ART or Rolls have, a couple of their cheaper models specs below.
The Ebtech "hum eliminator" audio transformer actually has a bit of a level increase at 16 Hz, at least with the termination I tested it with. A Stewart active direct box is also shown, it is down about .75 dB at 16 Hz.
Art
Attachments
At various points within this thread, you and Ben have both offered suggestions I found helpful. But I have NOT used everything that either of you suggested.
The two of you disagree on methods and results. So be it. The juice just ain't worth the squeeze, man.
I have not asked either of you to leave. I'd just rather you had your feud elsewhere.
Bach On
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One of the members at the organforum.com raised the issue of built-in rolloff in the Crown XLS1500 amp.
I've sent a request to Crown (and to the vendor) on this subject.
I was doing some research online while waiting for answers. I just ran across this thread in a Tech Talk forum at Parts Express:
Here's the address for the thread:
Good power amp that can deliver lots of power at low frequencies (ie below 20Hz)
Here is a pertinent post on the question of rolloff below 20 Hertz in the Crown XLS amps:
Default Re: Good power amp that can deliver lots of power at low frequencies (ie below 20Hz)
" verified my findings with crown tech support. The XLS is rated 20-20K response. Below 20, it has a 12db / octave roll off I guess as a make shift subsonic or just to conserve power or something. I knew I felt a few db less weight LOL."
Correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that a 12 dB roll-off built-in to the amp's design is going to have a very serious negative effect on my attempts to produce 16 Hertz with authority from any box.
Bach On
I've sent a request to Crown (and to the vendor) on this subject.
I was doing some research online while waiting for answers. I just ran across this thread in a Tech Talk forum at Parts Express:
Here's the address for the thread:
Good power amp that can deliver lots of power at low frequencies (ie below 20Hz)
Here is a pertinent post on the question of rolloff below 20 Hertz in the Crown XLS amps:
Default Re: Good power amp that can deliver lots of power at low frequencies (ie below 20Hz)
" verified my findings with crown tech support. The XLS is rated 20-20K response. Below 20, it has a 12db / octave roll off I guess as a make shift subsonic or just to conserve power or something. I knew I felt a few db less weight LOL."
Correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that a 12 dB roll-off built-in to the amp's design is going to have a very serious negative effect on my attempts to produce 16 Hertz with authority from any box.
Bach On
Answer from Crown
Ron,
It does have built in roll off by design. You’ll be at least -3 dB down when you get to 16 Hz so you should get some output from the amp. Whether it will be enough or not I can’t say. Perhaps give one a test if possible and go from there.
Regards,
Aaron
😡
BO
Ron,
It does have built in roll off by design. You’ll be at least -3 dB down when you get to 16 Hz so you should get some output from the amp. Whether it will be enough or not I can’t say. Perhaps give one a test if possible and go from there.
Regards,
Aaron
😡
BO
Crown XLS1500
@ Bach On
I did suggest contacting Crown earler & asking for a Power Response, as it's different from a Frequency Response !
As expected it does have a fixed HPF, as most do. Some also have a switchable HPF @ around 30Hz - 50Hz, but they still have a fixed one. They don't expect people to be trying to reproduce below 20Hz.
You could get a circuit diagram for it, & discover where the HPF's are inside & change the caps by a factor of say x 10 to lower the f3's. This of course would void the warranty though ! As you got a quick & honest response from Crown, it might be worth asking them if they would do the mods for you, thereby keeping the warranty. In fact you could be cheeky & say this project would be very good for promoting their amps.
@ Bach On
I did suggest contacting Crown earler & asking for a Power Response, as it's different from a Frequency Response !
As expected it does have a fixed HPF, as most do. Some also have a switchable HPF @ around 30Hz - 50Hz, but they still have a fixed one. They don't expect people to be trying to reproduce below 20Hz.
You could get a circuit diagram for it, & discover where the HPF's are inside & change the caps by a factor of say x 10 to lower the f3's. This of course would void the warranty though ! As you got a quick & honest response from Crown, it might be worth asking them if they would do the mods for you, thereby keeping the warranty. In fact you could be cheeky & say this project would be very good for promoting their amps.
Interesting information.
If I remember the information from artizan correctly each note can be raised or lowered in volume as generated by the software. So you should have the ability to raise the volume of a low C 32 foot pitch to whatever works out best in the installation after everything is all hooked up.
I really don't see how you're up the creek with anything that you found out so far.
If I remember the information from artizan correctly each note can be raised or lowered in volume as generated by the software. So you should have the ability to raise the volume of a low C 32 foot pitch to whatever works out best in the installation after everything is all hooked up.
I really don't see how you're up the creek with anything that you found out so far.
I just wrote our Artisan Rep, Mark Andersen. He'll be doing the install. I made him aware of the information and asked the very question you've raised, Mark.
I'm not shook up real bad. Just a little bad. 😉
Bach On
How easy that mod is depends on whether the filter is analog or digital. Chaning a cap or two is one thing, firmware another.
Have you seen the crown amp internals?
My guess is it would be a surface mount cap.
I throw in with Master D.
Crown could do it.
Just cite the number of hits on this thread.
And at least two Pros are paying attention as well.
One of which spec's installations.
My guess is it would be a surface mount cap.
I throw in with Master D.
Crown could do it.
Just cite the number of hits on this thread.
And at least two Pros are paying attention as well.
One of which spec's installations.
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