Funny comment, if you really know why the cymbal sounds like it does in the Alpair7. I call it "too much of something" due to non-flat FR. It makes cymbal sounds "great" to untrained ears but the consequence is that other things sound horrible.
You said you can't hear pass 12kHz. didn't you? Let's assume that 12kHz is already a few dB down with your ears. Then you cannot really hear the damage due to the elevated frequency.
Very true. The Alpair 7 will sound much better if at least the 10kHz peak is notched down. I wish all driver manufacturers know better about their products and can suggest to the customers a good remedy, a complete crossover example or a kit (instead of burning-in BS).
This is starting to get far afield, so if X would like it split off, fine with me.
20 out of 50 is not "most", at best if is a statistical mode. "Most" voters chose other drivers. At least to me it is a clear indication that different people hear differently and have different preferences. Personally, my tinnitus dictates what I need to do with EQ to make a driver listenable to me.
The mantra of "full-range" is no XO 300-3000Hz -- the telephone band. The reason being that the phase rotation of the individual drivers can be heard even though the phase sums flat. I'm not going to debate this here. If you can't accept that, then you shouldn't be posting on the full-range forum. We don't need another expert telling us how stupid we are for pursuing full-rangers.
No, DSP just makes the job easier. Small warts on any driver are easily fixed.
Maybe. I am working on a 2-way with an 8" woofer and a full-ranger. The problem with 3" drivers is they lack the ultimate SPL to keep up with woofer if crosses below 300Hz. At 2.5m, the 10F is only going to give ~95dB. Even with a 70dB average listening level, that won't cut it for classical music. Other genre may very.
Bob
20 out of 50 is not "most", at best if is a statistical mode. "Most" voters chose other drivers. At least to me it is a clear indication that different people hear differently and have different preferences. Personally, my tinnitus dictates what I need to do with EQ to make a driver listenable to me.
The mantra of "full-range" is no XO 300-3000Hz -- the telephone band. The reason being that the phase rotation of the individual drivers can be heard even though the phase sums flat. I'm not going to debate this here. If you can't accept that, then you shouldn't be posting on the full-range forum. We don't need another expert telling us how stupid we are for pursuing full-rangers.
No, DSP just makes the job easier. Small warts on any driver are easily fixed.
Maybe. I am working on a 2-way with an 8" woofer and a full-ranger. The problem with 3" drivers is they lack the ultimate SPL to keep up with woofer if crosses below 300Hz. At 2.5m, the 10F is only going to give ~95dB. Even with a 70dB average listening level, that won't cut it for classical music. Other genre may very.
Bob
With AMT or electrostatic speaker I would feel "static" could be speaker. But with these speakers maybe autolevel recording range in combination with larger deviation from average db level ????
Well, I'm pretty sure that's possible to find revealing music for this purpose. Nevertheless, they are quite rare and takes deep concentration to find differences.
I just stopped being anal about this and listen to the music instead. No harm intended by my writing….
Peter
At least they would know, right? To people that won't hear that difference I'd be inclined to look into multi ways (lol).
Each has it's pro and cons. But I like my harmonics as complete as I can get em.
That's my reason to hang out on this forum with my speaker project. Although sometimes I think my project could be regarded as multi way in a sense.
Peter, no harm done... but to me, there is a much bigger difference than on "some" music. Do you like full range drivers or do you prefer multi way?
Each has it's pro and cons. But I like my harmonics as complete as I can get em.
That's my reason to hang out on this forum with my speaker project. Although sometimes I think my project could be regarded as multi way in a sense.
Peter, no harm done... but to me, there is a much bigger difference than on "some" music. Do you like full range drivers or do you prefer multi way?
Want a tip on how to do it? Listen for the difference in soundstage. No headphone, just good speaker.
mp3 was a way to have many "ordinary" people judge, what is talked about and listen for themselves.
I should have never mentioned it (mp3) but that wasn't my point. We don't need to over analyse these files to be able to choose. That was my point I was trying to get across. It's like we're looking for faults on these last pages and that gets us nowhere. The files served their purpose. More people can make up their own mind about what they like.
About 20 people preferred a balanced and flat FR (something the measurement camp likes)
About 17 people chose a more spiced up sounding driver (as the measurements indicate)
Still 13 other choices left. (no idea really why)
Nothing wrong with choosing any of them, really. Nothing wrong either with not wanting to know why.
I'm learning something here and that was my personal goal to participate. It seems I can actually look at the data and correlate that to the sound I heard. Good to know for me.
We won't all look at it in the same way, we won't hear it the same and we don't have to. That's the point. Over analysing these clips isn't going to help. They proved their purpose for the most part. And give you some impression on some of their properties. Not all of the properties though. But it could help people decide for themselves.
I'll probably get flamed for calling 2 drivers out of this set as spiced up, but really, no offence meant in that remark. Maybe I should rephrase. But I wouldn't know how to call it if a driver clearly ads some of it's own character to the music. Not at all a problem if you like it. Good to learn if you do like it. Most all drivers will ad something to the recording. Personally I'm looking for one that ads the least, but that's just my view on things.
I can totally understand the people with tube amps and full range speakers. There can be magic there.
Myself, I'm chasing the magic I hear in the recording. And on as many different genre's that I like, different quest.
So whatever your journey is, you might get something out of this as well.
About 20 people preferred a balanced and flat FR (something the measurement camp likes)
About 17 people chose a more spiced up sounding driver (as the measurements indicate)
Still 13 other choices left. (no idea really why)
Nothing wrong with choosing any of them, really. Nothing wrong either with not wanting to know why.
I'm learning something here and that was my personal goal to participate. It seems I can actually look at the data and correlate that to the sound I heard. Good to know for me.
We won't all look at it in the same way, we won't hear it the same and we don't have to. That's the point. Over analysing these clips isn't going to help. They proved their purpose for the most part. And give you some impression on some of their properties. Not all of the properties though. But it could help people decide for themselves.
I'll probably get flamed for calling 2 drivers out of this set as spiced up, but really, no offence meant in that remark. Maybe I should rephrase. But I wouldn't know how to call it if a driver clearly ads some of it's own character to the music. Not at all a problem if you like it. Good to learn if you do like it. Most all drivers will ad something to the recording. Personally I'm looking for one that ads the least, but that's just my view on things.
I can totally understand the people with tube amps and full range speakers. There can be magic there.
Myself, I'm chasing the magic I hear in the recording. And on as many different genre's that I like, different quest.
So whatever your journey is, you might get something out of this as well.
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Agree and more good ones below related this thread.
Write up by Ra7 at post 138 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/270634-first-fullrange-suggestions-14.html#post4248570.
Write up by OPC at post 245 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...in-5in-full-range-drivers-25.html#post4249709.
Write up by xrk971 at post 48 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273971-group-delay-questions-analysis-5.html#post4320071.
What would you base this conclusion on? Most of the greatest recordings of all time were mastered using multi way monitor systems. Are they all poor representations of the original recordings harmonics?
Oh, I thought we are looking for differences? It is not sound quality analysis, it's ABX, finding out which one is which. Got the point?
But I know I was mentioning the hard method. It requires very good speaker where from a good recording you can easily pinpoint the location of singer and each instruments.
But here is a simple method that is easy to follow even if ears are not very good: listen from a distance.
When you hear nearfield, the bad sound will sound good and you will have difficulty to pick up the better/worse one. But when you listen farfield (from outside of the house) the bad sound will clearly sound bad (May be we are listening to waterfall/CSD here).
Four days of divorce trial over! Did anything happen here?
I read thru everything really quickly. I was disappointed to see the TB 1320 do so poorly - it's a nice driver but very 'soft' on top. In a way I'm glad it didn't fare so well because I feel it's not the best example of a full range driver - it doesn't sound bad tho. The Dayton PA130 is a very 'live' sounding driver, especially compared to the TB 1320. Neither are perfect and owning the two provides a great example of 'different strokes for different folks'... I prefer this driver (which received 0 votes) if only because it's more lively. But it can 'bite' and so I turn it off more often than some of the other drivers I own.
I have several Fostex drivers and hoped the 125 would have done better. Their drivers do have a similar overall sound. Certainly efficient and extended in the treble but nowhere near neutral. I still like my Fostex drivers despite the results.
Vifa and Scan Speak have always produced quality products so it's no surprise they fared so well. They are used in many hi-end speakers but aren't typically showcased in the Full Range forum, I suspect, due to their lower efficiency. Many of us enjoy low powered tube or T-amps (I do) so we seek higher efficiency regardless of accuracy. I will buy the Vifa soon and give it a listen. It's high Qts looks promising for the OBs I've been enjoying lately.
The Alpair story is confusing to me. It isn't clear if the manufacturer was honest or just hopeful that what he makes will simply be recognized as better. From a marketing perspective you work with what you have and make the best of it. But these drivers were touted as the latest technology and represented as a step up from the rest. FR charts from the manufacturer were stellar. Better than Jordan's, etc. I still haven't heard a pair and really want to. Everyone here wanted to see Alpair succeed.
Truth is, all of these drivers will sound different in various rooms. Toe-in changes the sound as do curtains, carpet, etc. But the test reinforced my belief that PRICE isn't the only factor in determining which driver is best. Engineering plays a major role. Sheesh, the Vifa is under $15 and it's measurements suggest it's very close to it's more expensive big brother - nearly identical. For that alone, this thread was AWESOME!
I'd vote for an 8" full range test in the future. I believe the results would be equally interesting. And we'd really get to see which manufacturers have figured out how to smoothly extend frequency response without a tweeter.
This is a great thread. The time spent here was important and keeps things in perspective. People have different tastes but a consensus can be found.
Thanks for your efforts XRK!
I read thru everything really quickly. I was disappointed to see the TB 1320 do so poorly - it's a nice driver but very 'soft' on top. In a way I'm glad it didn't fare so well because I feel it's not the best example of a full range driver - it doesn't sound bad tho. The Dayton PA130 is a very 'live' sounding driver, especially compared to the TB 1320. Neither are perfect and owning the two provides a great example of 'different strokes for different folks'... I prefer this driver (which received 0 votes) if only because it's more lively. But it can 'bite' and so I turn it off more often than some of the other drivers I own.
I have several Fostex drivers and hoped the 125 would have done better. Their drivers do have a similar overall sound. Certainly efficient and extended in the treble but nowhere near neutral. I still like my Fostex drivers despite the results.
Vifa and Scan Speak have always produced quality products so it's no surprise they fared so well. They are used in many hi-end speakers but aren't typically showcased in the Full Range forum, I suspect, due to their lower efficiency. Many of us enjoy low powered tube or T-amps (I do) so we seek higher efficiency regardless of accuracy. I will buy the Vifa soon and give it a listen. It's high Qts looks promising for the OBs I've been enjoying lately.
The Alpair story is confusing to me. It isn't clear if the manufacturer was honest or just hopeful that what he makes will simply be recognized as better. From a marketing perspective you work with what you have and make the best of it. But these drivers were touted as the latest technology and represented as a step up from the rest. FR charts from the manufacturer were stellar. Better than Jordan's, etc. I still haven't heard a pair and really want to. Everyone here wanted to see Alpair succeed.
Truth is, all of these drivers will sound different in various rooms. Toe-in changes the sound as do curtains, carpet, etc. But the test reinforced my belief that PRICE isn't the only factor in determining which driver is best. Engineering plays a major role. Sheesh, the Vifa is under $15 and it's measurements suggest it's very close to it's more expensive big brother - nearly identical. For that alone, this thread was AWESOME!
I'd vote for an 8" full range test in the future. I believe the results would be equally interesting. And we'd really get to see which manufacturers have figured out how to smoothly extend frequency response without a tweeter.
This is a great thread. The time spent here was important and keeps things in perspective. People have different tastes but a consensus can be found.
Thanks for your efforts XRK!
Godzilla,
Thanks for the detailed feedback. Hope your trial went well. Maybe a fun next test is to do a shoot out of the TC9FD, TG9FD, 10F/8424. I will use all new music tracks for the test so your ears get a fresh experience. I can switch to the RS225 FAST ref monitor as the basis of test. The XO will be higher at 550Hz acoustic but first order this time. More details on the box and what measurements may look like here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor-23.html#post4332988
Maybe we can get a sense of how much better the 10F is or maybe the TC9FD may even surprise us with an upset?
Thanks for the detailed feedback. Hope your trial went well. Maybe a fun next test is to do a shoot out of the TC9FD, TG9FD, 10F/8424. I will use all new music tracks for the test so your ears get a fresh experience. I can switch to the RS225 FAST ref monitor as the basis of test. The XO will be higher at 550Hz acoustic but first order this time. More details on the box and what measurements may look like here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor-23.html#post4332988
Maybe we can get a sense of how much better the 10F is or maybe the TC9FD may even surprise us with an upset?
Nice work on this driver comparison X 🙂 but a quick question, I had a quick look on your FRs on post 161 and the FR for the P830986 doesn't have a 10-12dB peak at around 12K that my samples have (or the manufactures spec sheet show) did you measure this driver off axis?
thanks, Arthur
thanks, Arthur