Ah Scorpion, the cheaper Econister ones - 8G16D, I think
Someone recently suggested that these in parallel with some Kiwames gave a better result but I've not tried anything like this - intriguing idea, 2 different types of resistors to tailor the sound ....
I must say that I'm not particularly concerned with rf response and temperature compensation and such things (altho appreciate that other people/experts do post their findings) as my primary focus is 'how this particular components sounds like in this position, in this circuit, in my system
From memory, the output resistor of the DC B1 especially benefitted from using something like a softer/darker sounding resistor for my system, but this will obviously vary for each of us.
Curiously, that 'Calvin buffer' thread recently caught my attention - I might build one to see what differences there are to the dc B1
Has anyone already done this?
Someone recently suggested that these in parallel with some Kiwames gave a better result but I've not tried anything like this - intriguing idea, 2 different types of resistors to tailor the sound ....
I must say that I'm not particularly concerned with rf response and temperature compensation and such things (altho appreciate that other people/experts do post their findings) as my primary focus is 'how this particular components sounds like in this position, in this circuit, in my system
From memory, the output resistor of the DC B1 especially benefitted from using something like a softer/darker sounding resistor for my system, but this will obviously vary for each of us.
Curiously, that 'Calvin buffer' thread recently caught my attention - I might build one to see what differences there are to the dc B1
Has anyone already done this?
Jameshillj,
Thanks for the inputs. Will try to give them (the Rhopoints) a try.
I also have the same focus as you do when trying parts: "How do they sound and are they in synergy with rest of parts/system?" I am pretty sure that differences in measurements do sound different but it's the sound that I am after, so wheter or not it measures with the meter/scope just doesn't change what I hear.
The DCB1 and my system are very revealing (i.e transparent, not edgy, sterile or analytical) and the "sonic signature" per resistors swap is pretty obvious.
I never heard of the "Calvin Buffer" but I will look into it.
Thanks again.
Regards
Scorpion
220R Shinkoh Tantalum-1Mega Riken Ohms-220K Audionote Tantalum
Ok so here is the report on the sound of the Audionote Tantalum @220K
First off, I want to underline that all resistors have at least 150-200 hours of "burn in"before reporting AND, I always swap with A-B-A method between each resistors AND take a lot of notes AND play the same cuts over and over again.
But, I am ALSO toying with the idea of doing as stated above and then, once done, pushing the tests a little further by puting 1 different 220K flavor per channel. Remember that I have dual mono TKD stepped attenuators so that I could listen to one channel at a time and have an instant, direct comparaison between Rs.
Bye bye the arguments about memory potentially playing tricks. Tests would be done in "real time" (even if the swaps already take less than a minute).
Any opinions on this "ad-on" method?
Ok, back to the Audionote Tantalum's sound. What was the most striking difference between the Audionotes and the Rikens (wich was in the system prior) was the amount of air that was much better with the Audionote. I could hear the "air in the room" . You know, the type of "air" one can "hear" in the silence, before the first note strikes. As if the silence was whispering. Not noise. Air. If you go see a lot of live intimate shows, you get what I am trying to describe here.
So first the amount of air was apparent (even more so than Amtrans). Second the tonal balance is switched slightly upwards. There is more energy in the mid-bass region and in the treble than with the Rikens while the midrange remains about the same but with very slightly less density with the Audionote. The edge of strings in guitars and violins -for example- isn't as sharp as with the Rikens. In fact, edges are very slightly "softened".
The treble has energy but in this matched trio of Rs, the sound was still very balanced. Still, I could easily conceive that someone with a thin or bright system or with splashy treble speakers could not like them but, that was NOT the case at all in my experience.
The transparency of the Audionote is a tad better than that of the Rikens (more micro informations and hall effects) but the latter give a bit more musicality. There is a little "fuzzy something" that remains with the AN. I never got the image stability and focus of the Rikens.
Voices also have a mid-hall presentation but, again, with a tad less density. Harmonics were very good but a hair less rich than with the Rikens and notes "died" a little faster too.
The soundstage is both deep and wide. We are in Amtrans territory here. Timbres are beautiful and natural.
At the end of the day, I found the Audionote tantalums, transparent, open and always gentle and soft. Treble energy is there but it wasn't a problem in my system at all. For sure not in this trio of resistors. The AN are coherent and musical, just a little less so. If only it wouldn't have been for that very tiny remaining "fuzzy feeling"...
Still, they are -overall- a far better match than the Amtrans and Allen-Bradleys. So far, they take a close second seat to the Rikens wich have a hair more synergy in the current Rs combo.
Let's move to the next one.
Regards
Scorpion
Ok so here is the report on the sound of the Audionote Tantalum @220K
First off, I want to underline that all resistors have at least 150-200 hours of "burn in"before reporting AND, I always swap with A-B-A method between each resistors AND take a lot of notes AND play the same cuts over and over again.
But, I am ALSO toying with the idea of doing as stated above and then, once done, pushing the tests a little further by puting 1 different 220K flavor per channel. Remember that I have dual mono TKD stepped attenuators so that I could listen to one channel at a time and have an instant, direct comparaison between Rs.
Bye bye the arguments about memory potentially playing tricks. Tests would be done in "real time" (even if the swaps already take less than a minute).
Any opinions on this "ad-on" method?
Ok, back to the Audionote Tantalum's sound. What was the most striking difference between the Audionotes and the Rikens (wich was in the system prior) was the amount of air that was much better with the Audionote. I could hear the "air in the room" . You know, the type of "air" one can "hear" in the silence, before the first note strikes. As if the silence was whispering. Not noise. Air. If you go see a lot of live intimate shows, you get what I am trying to describe here.
So first the amount of air was apparent (even more so than Amtrans). Second the tonal balance is switched slightly upwards. There is more energy in the mid-bass region and in the treble than with the Rikens while the midrange remains about the same but with very slightly less density with the Audionote. The edge of strings in guitars and violins -for example- isn't as sharp as with the Rikens. In fact, edges are very slightly "softened".
The treble has energy but in this matched trio of Rs, the sound was still very balanced. Still, I could easily conceive that someone with a thin or bright system or with splashy treble speakers could not like them but, that was NOT the case at all in my experience.
The transparency of the Audionote is a tad better than that of the Rikens (more micro informations and hall effects) but the latter give a bit more musicality. There is a little "fuzzy something" that remains with the AN. I never got the image stability and focus of the Rikens.
Voices also have a mid-hall presentation but, again, with a tad less density. Harmonics were very good but a hair less rich than with the Rikens and notes "died" a little faster too.
The soundstage is both deep and wide. We are in Amtrans territory here. Timbres are beautiful and natural.
At the end of the day, I found the Audionote tantalums, transparent, open and always gentle and soft. Treble energy is there but it wasn't a problem in my system at all. For sure not in this trio of resistors. The AN are coherent and musical, just a little less so. If only it wouldn't have been for that very tiny remaining "fuzzy feeling"...
Still, they are -overall- a far better match than the Amtrans and Allen-Bradleys. So far, they take a close second seat to the Rikens wich have a hair more synergy in the current Rs combo.
Let's move to the next one.
Regards
Scorpion
Attachments
I recently aquired a small bunch of those for the AYA II Project that is going on... (James, your chip will be put to good use 😉). I logged in on the Rhopoint website and requested a quote... eventually the german distributor got in touch with me and then transferred my request to the UK site. 6 resistors arrived at my door ONE day later 😛
But it will take some time before I start populating the board so no verdict on Rhopoint yet.
Edit: Prices direct from Rhpoint were better than Farnell when I recall correctly.
Thanks Stixx for your inputs.
I got in touch (left an email) with Rhopoint on their website several months ago but they never ever got back to me. That's why I asked how to get my hands on some Rs since it didn't work while trying from their homepage.
I will try to get in touch with them once more and see what happens. I couldn't find the DCB1's needed audio path values @ Farnell/Element14.
Thanks
Regards
Scorpion
Hi Scorpion, it is not resistance value that makes the sound different. I believe it is noise, because not only (AB) resistors, opamps and even amps with some noise can often sound more "organic".
I have had a long "love and hate" relationship with Allen-Bradley carbon composite resistors. I think Riken is a good balance. But I have decided to get a crystal clear sound (so no such carbon) and tweak the musicality somewhere else, especially in speaker area.
In your situation, I would purchase a lot of K170, and pick the best pair out of them. This is a sure way to improve the performance, and less time consuming.
But it is hard to avoid the clinical sound of (class-B especially) solid state amplifiers. What is your amp BTW?
Jay
In your situation, I would purchase a lot of K170, and pick the best pair out of them.
Best pair ??? a bit more please ! have a look on previous post; he get around 1mv off set .
In your situation, I would purchase a lot of K170, and pick the best pair out of them.
Best pair ??? a bit more please ! have a look on previous post; he get around 1mv off set .
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I don't think I have read about JFET matching in this thread 😕
Okay, matched Idss will give you the lowest output offset. Highest transconductance is preferable too, tho not as easy as to measure Idss.
I think the higher the Idss the higher the chance for higher transconductance. So I will purchase a V grade (Idss 10mA-20mA) if possible.
I have never done this but I will if I had the luxury.
You will face dissipation rise long term reliability problems with V though. Consider TO-92 minisinks and thermal linking of those signal JFETS even. High transconductance brings lower THD & higher bias, thus more available current and it usually sounds it depending on the load severity and interconnects capacitance. Offset when already very low, plays no part for DCB1. Unless there is a DC coupled amp that has some output stage bias change sensitivity with the multiplied by its voltage gain final output DCmV product. Maybe in such a case you would want the absolute best DCB1 JFET pairs result under fully warmed up ambient temperature in box.
Small copper plate (grounded) will do. Yes, mosfet input stage like Aleph series will benefit the most. Superior implementation of such high Yt JFET is in driving mosfet such as in Aleph-J, or driving a LATFET such as Juma's 5W ultimate amplifier
Small copper plate (grounded) will do. Yes, mosfet input stage like Aleph series will benefit the most. Superior implementation of such high Yt JFET is in driving mosfet such as in Aleph-J, or driving a LATFET such as Juma's 5W ultimate amplifier
Use 3R3 current set resistors to enjoy the benefits of warm operating point in the embedded regulators MOSFETS also. That will give you about half an Ampere in those. No less than 15-0-15 VAC 50 VA trafo. Better 80VA.
Hi Jay,
I think resistors value might also have a little something to do with the sound if they are too far from required value while still allowing designed circuit to work (reliability issues down the road I guess also).
What I mean is that if I was to compare 2 different brand metal films @ 1/2 watt (for example) and let's say one is @220K (targeted) and the other one at 235k...then maybe it does influence the sound a bit.
As far as Allen-Bradleys go, I too have a "Love-Hate" relationship them...very musical and coherent with excellent timbres...but colored, lacking in transparency and fat-sounding. Very vintage sound. For guitars amp or very seldomely used here and there but far from neutral as far as I am concerned.
I don't get your point about the K170s...since it's about resistors tryouts. Anyway, Salas answered that point with his great knowledge.
And about the "clinical sound of solid state". I think it is very possible to build a natural sounding class A-B amplifier if you take great care in listening very carefully to different parts.
Again, very careful matching is the way to go IME. It takes dedication and patience but the rewards are worth the hassles.
My DIY dual-mono amplifier took me years to fine-tune and it is far from clinical sounding. Very delicate, refined and neutral sounding amplifier. At least, it is to my likings wich is what I am after.
DIY member Praudio who just posted here has heard my amplifier over a dozen time so maybe he could comment.
I will post pics if you want to see it.
Regards
Scorpion
220R Shinkoh Tantalum-1Mega Riken Ohms-220K Kiwame
Ok, I am a little late on reports so I will post two tonights. First, the 220K Kiwame carbon film @1 watt.
Very laid-back, smooth and easy on the ears resistors. Rich, sweet, beautiful timbres, non-digital and full sound but.... that's about it.
Boy are they colored !!! You loose too mutch details, the edges are softened. The air around the instruments diminishes a lot and so does the focus.
The image is pretty stable in it's "fuzziness". It stays in place but the borders are vague. The bass is quite powerful but too round. The mids are overblown and fat sounding. Big sound . Unrealistic !
The soundstage stroke me as wide but lacking in depth. A bit 2-D sounding in fact. The kiwame is coherent sounding but the more "lifeless" of all the resistors so far. Too slow sounding and by far the worst match to date with the Shinkohs and the Rikens.
Still, if you do have a hyper detailed, thin sounding articulated, speedy and transparent system that almost borders on clinical, then the Kiwames might be a good fit for you and might balance things out. After all, it's a matter of careful matching and therefore, synergy.
But, if you're looking for something neutral, stay away big time.
Regards
Scorpion
Ok, I am a little late on reports so I will post two tonights. First, the 220K Kiwame carbon film @1 watt.
Very laid-back, smooth and easy on the ears resistors. Rich, sweet, beautiful timbres, non-digital and full sound but.... that's about it.
Boy are they colored !!! You loose too mutch details, the edges are softened. The air around the instruments diminishes a lot and so does the focus.
The image is pretty stable in it's "fuzziness". It stays in place but the borders are vague. The bass is quite powerful but too round. The mids are overblown and fat sounding. Big sound . Unrealistic !
The soundstage stroke me as wide but lacking in depth. A bit 2-D sounding in fact. The kiwame is coherent sounding but the more "lifeless" of all the resistors so far. Too slow sounding and by far the worst match to date with the Shinkohs and the Rikens.
Still, if you do have a hyper detailed, thin sounding articulated, speedy and transparent system that almost borders on clinical, then the Kiwames might be a good fit for you and might balance things out. After all, it's a matter of careful matching and therefore, synergy.
But, if you're looking for something neutral, stay away big time.
Regards
Scorpion
Attachments
220R Shinkoh Tantalum-1Mega Riken Ohms-220K Draloric
Well the Draloric SMA-0207 metal film @0,6 Watt is almost the opposite of the Kiwames as far as sound presentation goes.
The Dralorics here are very clean, articulated, transparent with lots of air. Both the image and focus are very precise and stable. The soundstage is very large but the depth is a bit restrained. Therefore, like the Kiwames, a bit flat and 2-D sounding.
The voices are big and proud with a front of the hall presentation. The overall presentation is forward in general. The bass is very articulated, punchy and powerful. The best bass so far.
The sound is coherent with somewhat of a good musicality (transient are very good)...but the music is too "speedy", too fast and therefore not very relaxing. It is as if all the singers and performers were in a hurry to get rid of their performance. ..and enjoy a drink backstage. Nope, fast, fast but not very relaxing.
The harmonics are restrained (in fact, the worst so far from all the Rs) . The strings of guitars and cellos are a bit too thin and so is the saxophone. The piano is too excited. Unnatural.
Overall, a bit dry, slightly hard. The most "transistorish" and digital sound so far. Reminds me of the first CD players on the market in early 90's, if you know what I mean.
In resume, the Draloric is quite the opposite to the Kiwames but they are more (too) lively and musical. Therefore, if you have a big sounding, laid-back, slow and somewhat unninvolving system wich would benefit from a boost in articulation and details and some "joie de vivre", then the Dralorics SMA-0207 might be a fit. A matter of mix and match.
Still, not a good fit in the current trio of Rs.
Regards
Scorpion
Well the Draloric SMA-0207 metal film @0,6 Watt is almost the opposite of the Kiwames as far as sound presentation goes.
The Dralorics here are very clean, articulated, transparent with lots of air. Both the image and focus are very precise and stable. The soundstage is very large but the depth is a bit restrained. Therefore, like the Kiwames, a bit flat and 2-D sounding.
The voices are big and proud with a front of the hall presentation. The overall presentation is forward in general. The bass is very articulated, punchy and powerful. The best bass so far.
The sound is coherent with somewhat of a good musicality (transient are very good)...but the music is too "speedy", too fast and therefore not very relaxing. It is as if all the singers and performers were in a hurry to get rid of their performance. ..and enjoy a drink backstage. Nope, fast, fast but not very relaxing.
The harmonics are restrained (in fact, the worst so far from all the Rs) . The strings of guitars and cellos are a bit too thin and so is the saxophone. The piano is too excited. Unnatural.
Overall, a bit dry, slightly hard. The most "transistorish" and digital sound so far. Reminds me of the first CD players on the market in early 90's, if you know what I mean.
In resume, the Draloric is quite the opposite to the Kiwames but they are more (too) lively and musical. Therefore, if you have a big sounding, laid-back, slow and somewhat unninvolving system wich would benefit from a boost in articulation and details and some "joie de vivre", then the Dralorics SMA-0207 might be a fit. A matter of mix and match.
Still, not a good fit in the current trio of Rs.
Regards
Scorpion
Attachments
Yes sure. But I know the effect of different resistor value in any position. Finding the correct component (such as resistor) value is my first tweaking before any parts tweaking. And the resistance range is often very wide to show any difference. Imagine if your design requires 400 Ohm, then 420 and 390 are quite rare. You might be stuck with 330 or 470. (Luckily I have plenty of stocks with almost any rare values).
I forgot about that (the theme of the thread). My point was, I do "technical" tweak first before part type tweaking. With expensive resistors, the difference is not critical imo. Part type tweaking is suitable to be done after all has been "done" like in your case I believe. In my case, the permutation/combination of "technical" tweak is so huge (Trying different CCS, different transistors, different CLG versus OLG, different everything).
ADD: Resistors, as long as "expensive", you can tolerate the sound. But beware of other parts such as rectifier diodes (from hyper-fast, schottky, dual, four-in-one). One fake or low quality part and if you never compare them...
Yes, please. And the schema if not a secret. Or amp name so i will find/know the schema.
BTW, do you notice any change in your music listening frequency when using class-A amp and class-B amp?
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Hi Jay,
I don't have the technical knowledge to play with specs such as CCS different values, transistor swaps with various specs and so forth. These tweaks - which I believe, can be audibly distinguished - are outside of my realm. But, let me tell you that if I was certain about what I was doing (i.e. without interfering/damaging with intended design), I would definitely give it a try.
The differences between resistors' swaps are sometimes so obvious in a highly transparent system that I don't doubt what you are saying for a second.
BTW, I will also try how different rectifier diodes sound. For this, I have bought MUR860, IXYS Schottky soft recovery and CREE SIC Schottky. I talked about comparing them at the beginning of the thread. The IXYS is in the system at the moment.
A pic can be seen @ post#44.
I will post pics of my DIY dual-mono amp (as you requested) later tonight.
Regards
Scorpion
If you can get your hands on some MSR860s (OnSemi), they're worth a try too - they're labelled as Soft Recovery and not the fastest ones out there (trr about 100nSec) and the Vf a bit higher at about 1.5volts so get much hotter, but they do have a 'quietening effect' on the supply - a definitely 'softer sound'
I still include a small resistor between the diodes and that first cap (a sort-of cut down C-R-C!) - easy to try out.
Similar thing with snubbers across the transformer's sec winding (see: Hagerman snubbers) and that Quazimudo tester thread makes it easy to get it 'just right'
I tried those Cree Silicon ones and couldn't get them to 'sound right' at all (very technical description, eh!) - not sure why either
I found the IXYs to be pretty good overall.
.
Yes Oliver, my new build is going very slowly too - got caught up in the 'Mad Scientist Audio' power line filters project.
I still include a small resistor between the diodes and that first cap (a sort-of cut down C-R-C!) - easy to try out.
Similar thing with snubbers across the transformer's sec winding (see: Hagerman snubbers) and that Quazimudo tester thread makes it easy to get it 'just right'
I tried those Cree Silicon ones and couldn't get them to 'sound right' at all (very technical description, eh!) - not sure why either
I found the IXYs to be pretty good overall.
.
Yes Oliver, my new build is going very slowly too - got caught up in the 'Mad Scientist Audio' power line filters project.
Jameshillj,
Those MSR860s by OnSemi seem interesting. I might give them a try when it'll be ''bridge rectifier tryouts'' time...
Thanks for the tips
Regards
Scorpion
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