Scorpion,
Thank you for your impressions and opinions.
I wonder if components ((R,C,I,Q) take your pick), when measured against others, can cause the same unconscious bias that price and perceived quality/value might?
If perceived auditory performance can be swayed by one option, then why not another?
Ron
Thank you for your impressions and opinions.
I wonder if components ((R,C,I,Q) take your pick), when measured against others, can cause the same unconscious bias that price and perceived quality/value might?
If perceived auditory performance can be swayed by one option, then why not another?
Ron
Hi Renron,
Thanks for chipping in. Interesting comments. I don't know, could be. Logically.
I try to give as honest a report as can be. I am as passionate about this hobby as you all. Just trying to experiment, share and contribute. If I hear a difference then so be it, if I don't then fine. I don't give a crap about price, if I hear something and I like it ((synergy wise), then that's the component I will choose.
I will try "cheap generic 5 cents resistors" also to see wheter so-called "boutique resistors" are worth the push or not. If it's "snake oil" so be it. If some are deserving or not, then ok.
I will also ask the fellow audiophiles wich will come to my place for listening sessions to (swap or NOT) the resistors without telling me the brand/type. Should limit bias a little further.
So far, the differences between the Allen-Bradleys and the Amtrans are obvious. Seriously, denying it would border on bad will...
One of my best friend is a mechanical engineer and was very doubtful about differences between powercords (same lenght and material but different plugs) because for him AC was AC...Well, he was in for a huge surprise. Afterwards, he just couldn't explain what he heard BUT he sure couldn't deny it. To this day, we still sometimes speak about it. Funny moments.
Anyway, lets continue these tests.
Regards
Scorpion
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Yes.
When the capacitor is the wrong size the signal gets altered and it's measurable.
When the resistor is the wrong size the signal gets altered and that too is measurable.
When the wiring is put in such that feedback affects loops, then the stability is altered and that too is measurable.
In all cases where I can hear a difference, there is a measurable effect that explains what I have heard.
It's because you refuse to accept any thought that measurements can be informative and instead rely on memory that I cannot see how you can reach conclusions that would convince any outsiders.
AndrewT,
That's NOT what I am saying. I do believe you when you say that when you heard a difference it was measurable. Really, I do. If that's what you experienced, why shouldn't I believe you? In fact, I strongly believe that when there are differences in measurements, it can be heard. There are enough reports on the matter. We agree on that.
I personally haven't bother to measure stuff when I hear a difference. Still, it's not because I haven't experienced it that it doesn't exist. That's evident.
Where our opinions and experiences strongly differ is when you say that if you can't measure it then it's pure bias or "snake oil". That is what I will fight for because that is what the last 2 decades of experimenting have shown me. Not experimenting with a multimeter to know wheter I should "expect" to hear a difference or not but with my ears. Much more precise instruments as far as I am concern. Please tell me how you manage to measure soundstage width and depth, focus, image stability etc.
I sincerely think you shouldn't discard what a very significant % of people report about differences in sound ( sometimes noticeable) when they change components. There is also something there Andrew...even if your experience has been otherwise.
Where I also strongly disagree is when you pretend, for example, that all 100uF @50v electrolytics or all 1/2 watt carbon film sound the same because THEY DON'T (sometimes the differences are inaudible but sometimes they are).
Differences are generally more evident when the technology is different (I guess here it's because they measure differently). The sonic differences between an Allen-Bradley carbon comp and a Vishay Z-foil naked "whatever" just plain and simply CAN'T BE DENIED. Too obvious.
I would loooooove to show you personally and let you have a listen to see wheter we are in "snake oil territory" or not. But distances make it impossible.
If you can't make the difference between Z-foil and A-Bs then you really have to seriously question you system's transparency and its ability to bring out the small nuances.
I am dead serious on that.
Oh and about relying on memory, the swaps take less than a minute...I am certain your memory could survive this "delay", just like mine (I also take notes you know).
Regards
Scorpion
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Scorpion,
I like the pictures of your system. It appears to be capable of a level of resolution sufficient to provide valid conclusions from this kind of testing. Good results so far, although nothing surprising yet: carbon comp resistors sound fatter than carbon film, and Amtrans makes nice boutique parts that probably contribute some level of refinement to the overall sound.
Something else that is no surprise: some skeptics are already proclaiming that anything that cannot be measured cannot be heard. What absolute rot. Ignore them. You will NEVER win an argument. You will not get a single concession, so don't waste your time trying to reason with them.
Continue your testing in whatever manner makes you comfortable. If you do not respond to the critical jeers and taunts and "advice," eventually they might get bored or disgusted and leave. Otherwise, their primary objective will be to contest all of your results, belittle your efforts, and trash the thread. It is amazing how often this happens, and the moderators do little to curtail it.
One thing to remember: there is no bias if you do not have a preference before testing begins. Yes, bias can certainly be a factor, especially in sighted tests, but if you have no favorite at the outset, there is no bias. Try to clear your mind of influential factors such as cost, reputation, even color or size beforehand. Be as objective as possible. Keep an open mind, and accept all outcomes. Double check when in doubt, or even when not in doubt. Pick your horse AFTER the race is run, and you win every time.
If possible and practical, try to keep your wife involved. She seems to have valid critical abilities, and she is certainly unbiased. Ask her opinion before stating yours, or without stating yours at all.
Looking forward to the whole run of tests.
Peace,
Tom E
I like the pictures of your system. It appears to be capable of a level of resolution sufficient to provide valid conclusions from this kind of testing. Good results so far, although nothing surprising yet: carbon comp resistors sound fatter than carbon film, and Amtrans makes nice boutique parts that probably contribute some level of refinement to the overall sound.
Something else that is no surprise: some skeptics are already proclaiming that anything that cannot be measured cannot be heard. What absolute rot. Ignore them. You will NEVER win an argument. You will not get a single concession, so don't waste your time trying to reason with them.
Continue your testing in whatever manner makes you comfortable. If you do not respond to the critical jeers and taunts and "advice," eventually they might get bored or disgusted and leave. Otherwise, their primary objective will be to contest all of your results, belittle your efforts, and trash the thread. It is amazing how often this happens, and the moderators do little to curtail it.
One thing to remember: there is no bias if you do not have a preference before testing begins. Yes, bias can certainly be a factor, especially in sighted tests, but if you have no favorite at the outset, there is no bias. Try to clear your mind of influential factors such as cost, reputation, even color or size beforehand. Be as objective as possible. Keep an open mind, and accept all outcomes. Double check when in doubt, or even when not in doubt. Pick your horse AFTER the race is run, and you win every time.
If possible and practical, try to keep your wife involved. She seems to have valid critical abilities, and she is certainly unbiased. Ask her opinion before stating yours, or without stating yours at all.
Looking forward to the whole run of tests.
Peace,
Tom E
it is precisely that lack of measurment that makes any "conclusions" in this test non-transferrable.
You are doing sighted listening tests, without even ensuring that the volume is the same between samples.
Sorry, but such tests are useless to me. Bias is unconscious.
BTW: If I had a dollar for every citation that suggested that an audiophiles wife was credible, I'd be a millionaire.
Use the wrong components and the performance will be different.
Omit some of the correct components and then you force some other component to perform a duty that it was not chosen/selected to do and that inappropriate parameter will change the performance.
eg.
stick in a carbon resistor and you WILL CHANGE the performance.
Many will hear that. Measurements will show it and can be presented as evidence.
Use a low enough tempco, high enough power rating, high enough voltage rating, and the performance should match what it is designed to do.
Fall short of those selection criteria and there is a good change that it will not meet it's performance targets.
I am a firm believer in "comparison".
Compare a standard amplifier (or audio component) to a DUT with the same components.
Now change one component in the DUT and COMPARE to the standard.
Repeat 23782 times for all the component combinations.
Memory with notes might do a good job here.
But without the reference for DUT comparison, your memory and notes has no chance of giving useful answers. No matter how many notes of support you get from the likes of Madisonears.
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BigE,
About sighted changes
From post#99
I wouldn't tell you if a change had taken place or not, if a resistor is more expensive or cheaper. That would limit bias. Plus, "audio memory" is not so much an issue because swaps can be done in seconds...
And from post #102
I will try "cheap generic 5 cents resistors" also to see wheter so-called "boutique resistors" are worth the push or not. If it's "snake oil" so be it. If some are deserving or not, then ok.
I will also ask the fellow audiophiles wich will come to my place for listening sessions to (swap or NOT) the resistors without telling me the brand/type. Should limit bias a little further.
About making sure volume is the same
from post#99
The only "leveling" in sound that I do (if it can be called leveling at all) is that I leave my stepped attenuators sound level "as is", unplug the DCB1, swap resistors, turn power back ON and listen to the same cuts from the same CDs over and over again.
Now, wheter you believe what I said or not about my wife's impressions is up to you. Sincerely, I couldn't care less. What happened happened and the fact that you believe it or not doesn't change history.
Doubting her credibility is another story. She is entitled to her perceptions as much as you and I.
But if credibility is an issue for you, I could PayPal you 1$...en route to becoming a millionaire.
Regards
Scorpion
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Ya know..................
The Moderators are going to say something soon about staying on topic.
Andrew T. , your suggestion about a "reference" base is a very good idea.
I auditioned Power Amplifiers once at my home. Using just my ears, because that's what I hear with. (and I have no scope 🙂 )
I was surprised by the outcome of my preference. I chose the one I thought I'd like the least. They were all referenced back to a Sony ES receiver. They all sounded very good, but one was better in MY home. Others would have a different outcome in THEIR home.
Conrad Johnson Amp lived with us until I built a Pass F5, Conrad has left the building.
Ron
The Moderators are going to say something soon about staying on topic.
Andrew T. , your suggestion about a "reference" base is a very good idea.
I auditioned Power Amplifiers once at my home. Using just my ears, because that's what I hear with. (and I have no scope 🙂 )
I was surprised by the outcome of my preference. I chose the one I thought I'd like the least. They were all referenced back to a Sony ES receiver. They all sounded very good, but one was better in MY home. Others would have a different outcome in THEIR home.
Conrad Johnson Amp lived with us until I built a Pass F5, Conrad has left the building.
Ron
One never uses just their ears when they can identify the component under test....
to use just your ears, you cannot peek.
to use just your ears, you cannot peek.
Renron,
You are right. Moderator or not, it's time to get back on topic.
AndrewT, BigE and others who disagree, if you think all this is BS or "snake oil", fine. You are entitled to your opinions.
My experiences and those from many members have shown different conclusions.
I don't have the power to save your "soul" so believe what you want.
I will carry on with the experiments whether you agree or not because your arguments affect in no way what I hear.
Regards
Scorpion
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BigE,
Instead of trying to find every possible cracks in the process and try proving that I can't hear a thing, why don't you come over and have a listen for yourself?
You are not that far away. I am certain it would put an end to arguments.
Only experiments can tell.
Regards
Scorpion
Awe come on! Didn't you read my previous post???
That's like saying you don't use your feet to walk, because you used your hands to tie your shoe laces...............
(although I get your drift)
Time to move on.
BigE, take Scorpio up on his offer. And enjoy an adult beverage together.
Ron
Hi Scorpion,
I would be interested to come by for a listen. I believe you are not too far from where I live?
Anyways, you can PM me if it is of any interest. I could also bring my balanced DCB1 to compare the sound.
Ciao!
Do
I would be interested to come by for a listen. I believe you are not too far from where I live?
Anyways, you can PM me if it is of any interest. I could also bring my balanced DCB1 to compare the sound.
Ciao!
Do
Hi Pinocchio,
Great idea !!! You will be a welcomed guess. The more ears, the better.
Please PM me your coordonates (btw, my first language is french so you can use it) and I'll get in touch with you.
Regards
Scorpion
Sorry Scorpion, I am too far away from Montreal.
It's not that I do not think you believe you hear massive differences, it is that I question why you hear them. My gut says: bias.
I am not looking for "cracks". I am seriously trying to help make the test more error free. The use of an SPL meter is imperative, as we tend to prefer the louder signal.
Anyway, I will desist.
Enjoy your testing!
It's not that I do not think you believe you hear massive differences, it is that I question why you hear them. My gut says: bias.
I am not looking for "cracks". I am seriously trying to help make the test more error free. The use of an SPL meter is imperative, as we tend to prefer the louder signal.
Anyway, I will desist.
Enjoy your testing!
DUT = device under test
REF = reference.
It is often seen in posts, schematics and datasheets
One keeps the REF as the "standard" and compares all the various alternatives in the DUT location/position.
This enables one to repeatedly compare REF to DUT over a few seconds (as in measuring jFETs for a match) or minutes as in listening to audio files.
But very importantly, it allows one to return after days/weeks/months when operating conditions could be very different to retest the REF vs DUT.
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Thanks for the excellent explanation AndrewT. In fact, it is a great idea. Probably the best way to do comparison tests.
Unfortunately, building another DCB1 like the one I built means a lot of time and money. Therefore, I will try to do the very best I can with what I have on hands.
Still, I do reckon that your solution is the best route to take.
Regards
Scorpion
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