What is the best subwoofer possible?
Any project should start with specifications.
A good subwoofer does not come into existence by just choosing among manufacturers and woofer models or enclosure types others recommend according to their own preference or hearsay. Driver, enclosure and room interact and need to fit to each other, to the purpose, and to the owner's preferences.
Any project should start with specifications.
- Budget. Without a limit, you will search forever, because each time you think you got it nailed, something new, more expensive and better will come up, and you start all over again.
- Time. When do you need to finish? If there is no limit, you will never decide, when you have to live with what you've got so far. Same as above, the best driver is the one you buy tomorrow.
- Minimum SPL. Does it need to sound good at low listening level? Then you need to look for a driver with low losses and THD.
- Maximum SPL. Defines the amount of air you have got to move, i.e. size, stroke and amount of drivers and/or cabinet type.
- Efficiency. How much power do you want to burn? How much money will you invest into amps?
- Frequency range. Upper and lower limit as well as desired flatness depend on the music or sound effects the subwoofer needs to convey.
- Compromise between ring in and ring out?
- THD+N?
- Looks? WAF?
- Sonic preference? Neutral or punchy or authoritative or...
- Quality. How long does the subwoofer need to work without failure in which circumstances, i.e. temperature, SPL, ...
- Other aspects or preferences.
A good subwoofer does not come into existence by just choosing among manufacturers and woofer models or enclosure types others recommend according to their own preference or hearsay. Driver, enclosure and room interact and need to fit to each other, to the purpose, and to the owner's preferences.
For reproducing traditional "classical" music, you'd never notice the difference if you cut below 35 Hz, St. Saen's organ symphony included. (One of my subs is fed only 23-40 Hz* and pretty rare to see a blink on the VU meter for that amp except occasionally on loud organ pedals.)
What do we hear/feel/experience at low vibrations?
Can anybody characterize the low range of human hearing? For sure, "20 to 20" is a baseless cliche. At this forum, we sometimes read honest reports of upper limits - like 13kHz or so being typical (and on a good day for me).
Even if my mic "hears" sound in the 18-22 Hz range, not sure I am really hearing it (although not tested at really loud levels).
So what are the stats on low-end? Is it useful to distinguish "hearing" from "feeling"? Any age trend?
Ben
*and when it does voice, stuff vibrates and falls off my table.
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A live 16 Hz tone from a big church organ is impressive. You hear and feel it at the same time.
Many years ago I was at a hi-fi show in Germany. One speaker manufacturer ran a recording of that over a 2x12" subwoofer. It came pretty close. When someone calculated the air those woofers could move and said it was impossible to achieve that, the manufacturer admitted to cheating. The woofers did make the tones audible, but not loud enough, so they had mounted shakers below all seats.
Many years ago I was at a hi-fi show in Germany. One speaker manufacturer ran a recording of that over a 2x12" subwoofer. It came pretty close. When someone calculated the air those woofers could move and said it was impossible to achieve that, the manufacturer admitted to cheating. The woofers did make the tones audible, but not loud enough, so they had mounted shakers below all seats.
A worthy fun story.
But... anybody produce a spectrogram showing what tones were actually present in the church (and to what loudness) or what was present in the showroom? Easy to hear 16 Hz when only 32 Hz is playing.
I've watched a lot of my favourite organ recordings (including my own recording) on a spectrum analyzer. Sure have to be patient to see anything south of 35 appear.
I guess it doesn't matter if we hear or feel those notes; not an important distinction. But I am still curious about hearing - like testing low-range with headphones? From the Fletcher-Munson curves, the slope of the curves are skyrocketing into the "can't hear a thing" range before getting down to 20 Hz.
For sure, we all have fun recordings (including Tom Danley's gift to all with fireworks) or railroad boxcars bumping over gaps between rails. But audio paraphilias* aside, not much in music.
Having said that, I'd be sad not to feel the side-drum in the Holst Band Suites (Howard Hanson, cond.)... each time I tune-up my system.
Ben
*look it up, I'm blushing.
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lol....this ^^^^
If I wanted a price-no-object system, I certainly wouldn't want anyone on the build-crew to have to resort to posting/asking on a DIY forum on what's best. Not that there would be anything wrong with the forum, but rather the fact he/she would not already know. I'd simply hire the best.
Hear what the experts have to say...
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Hey Guys!!! video
: If you have nothing to do, go here to have more fun...
The Lounge - diyAudio or visit YG
: I don't know why, but, it's like the...
Real Alien Interview. Hear what the experts have to say. Do you BELIEVE? Very Strange - YouTube 😀 😀
I do doubt that there is a Subwoofer out there, that is able to reproduce the power, the force and the authority of such a huge Organ like the one in the StephansDom in Passau / Germany for example! I have heard it several times and its a overwhelming experience to hear the majesty of these Instrument! No Subwoofer will come even close to it.
No Velo DD18+ or Kharma Enigma Sub oder that funny fantasy thinggy from Magico with the proclaimed 136 dB at 20 Hz with 1% THD.
Maybe there are some selfdesigned constructions are out in the scene that are able to reproduce the sound of the pipes. But no one have a church from this size and with this special acoustic as listeningroom at home!
No Velo DD18+ or Kharma Enigma Sub oder that funny fantasy thinggy from Magico with the proclaimed 136 dB at 20 Hz with 1% THD.
Maybe there are some selfdesigned constructions are out in the scene that are able to reproduce the sound of the pipes. But no one have a church from this size and with this special acoustic as listeningroom at home!
An organ is a different beast. Each pipe represents one NOTE only...
Commercial subs must be all very synthetic with all that Linkwitzs and bass boosts. A woofer driver must have a natural LF extension of it's own if not it's not prepared to work in that frequency.
Commercial subs must be all very synthetic with all that Linkwitzs and bass boosts. A woofer driver must have a natural LF extension of it's own if not it's not prepared to work in that frequency.
Back to the issue of making a great music room and why choosing drivers is just one issue: whole realms of thought into architectural acoustics are needed (such as the usual questions of room dimensions, avoiding parallel walls, etc.) but also including things like keeping outside noises from getting in.
Obviously, an organ pipe is tuned. But a key ("note") on the keyboard typically voices a few pipes to make a preferred sound when pressed. And one organ pipe makes lots of sounds. And organ makers have many tricks to enhance the aural impressions of high and low notes.
Ben
Obviously, an organ pipe is tuned. But a key ("note") on the keyboard typically voices a few pipes to make a preferred sound when pressed. And one organ pipe makes lots of sounds. And organ makers have many tricks to enhance the aural impressions of high and low notes.
Ben
and just because the OP is missing in action doesn't mean the rest of us don't find endless fascination in the topic
This is how we did a "cost no object" system, pictured is only phase one in a temporary setup. the subwoofer towers are to be placed in the corners of the room, one in each corner. Phase 2 will include 4 additional subwoofers to be placed onto of these.
Amplification is 2 x 1000W per Subwoofer, or 1000W for each 2 12" drivers, they are DSP programable.
On the front speakers the 18" woofers are also driven by a 1000W module each. upon completion the system will have 20kW for LFE alone.
Good Listening
Peter
Amplification is 2 x 1000W per Subwoofer, or 1000W for each 2 12" drivers, they are DSP programable.
On the front speakers the 18" woofers are also driven by a 1000W module each. upon completion the system will have 20kW for LFE alone.
Good Listening
Peter
Attachments
There are only few pieces, where the subcontra C with 16 Hz is actually played. One of the best known is "So spoke Zarathustra" which starts with only that note for several seconds before the orchestra sets in.
I can barely hear the 16 Hz note on my 12" woofers, and as soon as the orchestra sets in, the note is completely lost. On my headphones however the note remains audible through the orchestra, but is not too impressive, because the tactile sensation is missing.
Of course I'd like speakers that are up to that task. There are just too many compromises to take, and too few pieces of music where such tones are actually present.
While it's certainly not the 1st priority in creating a wonderful sound system, at some point along the way, resources permitting, it just seems a natural evolution to want to cover the extreme ends of the spectrum, both the lowest lows and highest highs. When I listened to a careful AB comparison of a couple of systems with and without the addition of a super tweeter I became a convinced that it added a meaningful and enjoyable extra something to the pleasures of music playback. True sub subwoofers also add that bit of extra at the other end of the spectrum. DIY efforts show that a portion of this can be had without going into 5 figure dollar amounts, but if you do have the budget and desire for it then why not enjoy something as all out as the various infinite baffle, subterranean horns, Emminent Tech propellers, or whatever else tickles your fancy. For those of us who move around there are still some nice options especially with servo's, DSP solutions, and multiple placement.
Personally I don't think I can hear much above 16kHz. I wonder whether the days of high end 'super sparkle' are gone for me or whether its just I haven't heard enough high end recordings. Personally though if € have any hearing loss it's probably my own fault (for prioritising 'loud')
This thread is called "Best subwoofer possible - price no object".
To be on topic it's not a question of tones possible from a church organ. Now we're talking louder AND deeper than ANY church organ. It's a question of reproduction of ANY sound made now or in the future, included electronic music, trucks passing outside the house or what have you. If one believes a cut @ 35 Hz is non detectable (a level of performance that is available over the shelf today) this is just a question of lack of performance and power and maybe listeners lack of experience with sound reproduction from large cost no object systems. The fletcher-munson is old. Today scientific trials shows results at much lower frequencies. Being on topic the problem cooks down to pump volume as in multiple closed and eqed boxes. Smaller drivers means more boxes. Big drivers means not as many boxes as in using smaller drivers. Amps are no problem as they are cheap nowadays. But thread starter want cost no object so...
To be on topic it's not a question of tones possible from a church organ. Now we're talking louder AND deeper than ANY church organ. It's a question of reproduction of ANY sound made now or in the future, included electronic music, trucks passing outside the house or what have you. If one believes a cut @ 35 Hz is non detectable (a level of performance that is available over the shelf today) this is just a question of lack of performance and power and maybe listeners lack of experience with sound reproduction from large cost no object systems. The fletcher-munson is old. Today scientific trials shows results at much lower frequencies. Being on topic the problem cooks down to pump volume as in multiple closed and eqed boxes. Smaller drivers means more boxes. Big drivers means not as many boxes as in using smaller drivers. Amps are no problem as they are cheap nowadays. But thread starter want cost no object so...
I don't like subs, really... (HT or stereo)
They came included in my pair of speakers (read LF extension) when I bought them. And they work in stereo as an added bonus, with full integration with the mains (floorstanders) and with no boosting or "artificial" equalization. This is what I call - "price no object."
Maybe I don't need them in my studio. How it would be in an open space/arena or just in a small amphitheater or auditorium I don't know.
They came included in my pair of speakers (read LF extension) when I bought them. And they work in stereo as an added bonus, with full integration with the mains (floorstanders) and with no boosting or "artificial" equalization. This is what I call - "price no object."
Maybe I don't need them in my studio. How it would be in an open space/arena or just in a small amphitheater or auditorium I don't know.
Hi Xymox1,
An excellent subwoofer is the 4642A JBL. THX approved.
Very low distorsion, good linearity, little power compression, high SPL capabilities, extended bass...
It consists in dual 18" in a common volume bass-reflex enclosure.
You can see the link here:
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/subwoofers/4642a#.U00gjNHyBuw
You can couple it by two or more units if needed.
Of course you can improve it, making the enclosure with concrete, and using the originals 2241H JBL units or the differential drive neodyme version, the 2268H JBL units.
In both cases the distorsion is ultra-low - let say 1% for 115dB/1m even at 40Hz.
Ultraclean bass.
If you want to reproduce frequencies lower than 30Hz you can add a stack of W15GTI JBL (differential drive, infra bass) loaded each by a 220L bass-reflex enclosure. Made in concrete of course ;-)
This 15" is dedicated for ultra-low-frequencies reproduction, but exhibit an efficiency much lower then the 4642. Amount of power (and 15" units) will be necessary to match the SPL capability of the 4642.
Regards
Bruno from Marseille, France
An excellent subwoofer is the 4642A JBL. THX approved.
Very low distorsion, good linearity, little power compression, high SPL capabilities, extended bass...
It consists in dual 18" in a common volume bass-reflex enclosure.
You can see the link here:
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/subwoofers/4642a#.U00gjNHyBuw
You can couple it by two or more units if needed.
Of course you can improve it, making the enclosure with concrete, and using the originals 2241H JBL units or the differential drive neodyme version, the 2268H JBL units.
In both cases the distorsion is ultra-low - let say 1% for 115dB/1m even at 40Hz.
Ultraclean bass.
If you want to reproduce frequencies lower than 30Hz you can add a stack of W15GTI JBL (differential drive, infra bass) loaded each by a 220L bass-reflex enclosure. Made in concrete of course ;-)
This 15" is dedicated for ultra-low-frequencies reproduction, but exhibit an efficiency much lower then the 4642. Amount of power (and 15" units) will be necessary to match the SPL capability of the 4642.
Regards
Bruno from Marseille, France
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