The bearing ball is there under the plastic cap.
Simone Luchetti has a web presence:
audiosilente.com
His web pages are in Italian. With google translate and a little bit of imagination you can work you way through his explanations. He also have a shop on ebay
Best Regards
Nils
Simone Luchetti has a web presence:
audiosilente.com
His web pages are in Italian. With google translate and a little bit of imagination you can work you way through his explanations. He also have a shop on ebay
Best Regards
Nils
Thanks for that link. I'm reading through his text via Google translations. As you note, some imagination is required but the main idea seems to be clear so far.
I have three TD124s. all mk1. One of the three has an e50 with dead coils. I found this out when, after doing a complete refurbish that the motor would not turn under its own power.
(I double checked my wire-up (solder-up) at the terminal plate. all ok there. I have a photo of a terminal wire-up that works. I use that as a reference when doing a refurbish.)
So I took the iron core with windings from another TD124 as a substitute for the refurbished case halves. Now it runs. But I've got a dead core for my third TD124.....rats. I have sent an email to Simone. Lets see if he answers. I hope he can read/write english. I'll likely buy one of those.
re: your step pulley problems. The grinding noise is telltale that something major is wrong.
Things to do:
1) Remove step pulley from shaft. Clean out old lube from the bushing sleeves within the step pulley. A thorough rinse/soak with lacquer thinner should help. I use Q-tips in these bushings to wipe the old grease residue out. Be thorough. Let dry after cleaning.
2) Examine the fixed shaft attached at the chassis for evidence of obvious wear. And wipe it clean with a soft cloth. (first)
3) Put the cleaned step pulley back onto the cleaned fixed shaft, with ball. do this dry just as a test fit. (not to run) With the parts assembled into normal position, see if you can rock the step pulley by putting some side force onto the pulley. We want to see if it will rock a detectable amount.
4) if it doesn't appear to have much rocking action, then simply put more 20 wt lube onto the shaft and into the bushing sleeves. Put some on top of the bearing ball as well.
5) spin check. See if it will spin freely after giving it a twirl by finger. you can alter the spindown time by turning the eddy brake pitch control knob. Less eddy break = longer spin.
6) It sounds as if you might have your eddy magnet spaced too close to the step pulley. I'd set it to a .06 to .08 inches (1.5 - 2.0mm) gap clearance. Use a couple of round cocktail toothpicks placed between pulley and magnet to accurately set this clearance. The reduction in eddy currents should help quiet the step pulley.
7) the step pulley height is adjustable by means of a pair of set screws on the under side of the chassis. If you have a step pulley that is actually scraping against the chassis with the bottom of its large pulley surface, operating height can be adjusted by simply moving the shaft upward a measured amount then re-setting the set screws. I added that in case that is the source of your grinding noise.
Now. After having done that, assembly the belt to the pulley and run the motor. But without the platter on. Listen to it this way. You will likely have to hold the idler wheel away from the step pulley. But now, if the grinding noise continues, then you know further effort and expense will be required.
-Steve
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Yes. I've been reading through his site. He's definitely into turntables and Thorens. I've also been looking at his for sale items on ebay. Very interesting. Also, graphite armboards. Hmmmm. Why didn't I think of that.
-Steve
Simon's got a facebook page too. Been awhile, but I sourced some bushings from him. He acknowledge they were off-the-shelf, likely oilite. Haven't put them in yet. I'm still working on finishing the room where such things as rebuilds will take place. wife would kinda prefer I work on the house for some reason.
Luchetti is a good guy, but watch out for the USPS with items coming into NYC in particular from Italy. I bought some parts from him just a couple of months ago and the U.S. postal service or customs lost them. (The USPS was not able to determine what happened to them, only that they were lost.) Paypal refunded..
Guys
I have been thinking, with the 124 the first steps are getting the motor and bushings in order, once this has been done the table is quiet. What I have found is after all this, The majority of noise is caused by the effect of the eddy current brake. lessening this effect = less noise. My tables are very quiet, at this time I have to use a stethoscope to hear this effect.
What im considering is reducing the size of the motor pulley a few thousanths of an inch, reducing the speed, allowing for less brake effect & noise.
Thoughts ?
bob
I have been thinking, with the 124 the first steps are getting the motor and bushings in order, once this has been done the table is quiet. What I have found is after all this, The majority of noise is caused by the effect of the eddy current brake. lessening this effect = less noise. My tables are very quiet, at this time I have to use a stethoscope to hear this effect.
What im considering is reducing the size of the motor pulley a few thousanths of an inch, reducing the speed, allowing for less brake effect & noise.
Thoughts ?
bob
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You might want to read back a few pages. Kevinkr's been through a lot of this, almost to the mm clearance being quoted for the eddy current brake. My understanding is that the best results have come from dropping the voltage to the motor. I, too, have thought about changing the "gear ratio" a tad, if I have the problem, but if, indeed, the problem is that a properly rebuilt motor simply runs faster than it did when new because the voltage these days is too high, then seems to me that the right thing to do, the safest thing to do for the motor, is to give it what it was designed for.
Good thought IMO, but a very competent machinist is needed in order to maintain the proper radius on the pulley so the belt does not slip off - perhaps cloning the pulley a few thousandths undersize would be better?
I am currently running my TD-124/II on ~110V/60Hz which has allowed me to back off the brake just a bit. I can also switch to 105V, but it takes too long to come up to speed and even though dead on speed wise something is lacking. (Drive, and dynamics?)
My other older TD-124/I runs a bit more quietly at full line voltage as I guess the different winding version results in a little less torque. (?)
I am currently running my TD-124/II on ~110V/60Hz which has allowed me to back off the brake just a bit. I can also switch to 105V, but it takes too long to come up to speed and even though dead on speed wise something is lacking. (Drive, and dynamics?)
My other older TD-124/I runs a bit more quietly at full line voltage as I guess the different winding version results in a little less torque. (?)
I agree, a slightly smaller copy of the original pulley is the best bet.
The goal to as simply as possible reduce the nessessary brake effect. to acheive stable speed.
My line here is usually 120 +/- 1 .
I have experimented with varying the voltage from 100 to 120 v, I noticed the same issues, a loss of torque was the first issue. I like torque. I thought better stability and sound.
bob
Steve wrote:
I am very happy with the new Windings from Simone. With new windings top speed of my motor is 1440 rpm. Apparently a motor with old windings go to 1380-1400 rpm. With new windings typical speed according to Simone is 1430-1445 rpm
The motor with new windings is also heavier. Each new Winding is 82 gramms, vs old which are 59 gramms.
I will adjust the eddy current brake. I noticed that moving the eddy current break closer the turbulence sound got much stronger. So hopefully this will reverse some of the noice.
I also bought a new belt. This belt was very tight and also increased the noise from the stepped pulley, I moved back to the old belt which measures about 16,5 cm or 6,5 ''. Substantially less noise from the pulley!
Best Regards
Nils
I am very happy with the new Windings from Simone. With new windings top speed of my motor is 1440 rpm. Apparently a motor with old windings go to 1380-1400 rpm. With new windings typical speed according to Simone is 1430-1445 rpm
The motor with new windings is also heavier. Each new Winding is 82 gramms, vs old which are 59 gramms.
I will adjust the eddy current brake. I noticed that moving the eddy current break closer the turbulence sound got much stronger. So hopefully this will reverse some of the noice.
I also bought a new belt. This belt was very tight and also increased the noise from the stepped pulley, I moved back to the old belt which measures about 16,5 cm or 6,5 ''. Substantially less noise from the pulley!
Best Regards
Nils
I'm assuming that the new motor windings actually produce more torque which results in a slightly higher running speed. The last generation of E50 motors seem to run a bit cooler and produce more torque than the two older versions I have seen.
The belt is definitely a critical ingredient to both noise and speed performance. I've tried a lot, and have found the Schopper belts to be closest in terms of performance to the originals - I have a few 50+yr old belts that are still OK. Thicker belts exacerbate the excessive speed problem so try to find ones that are as thin as the original.
The new torquier motor is probably going to force you to keep the brake magnet in very close proximity to the stepped pulley in order to maintain the correct speed when fully warmed up. Increase the gap and you may find that the table runs too fast regardless of setting. You can slightly reduce the voltage to the motor, but I have found to my chagrin that carried to reasonable limits this can sap the table of a lot of its dynamic character - I don't know why this is so as the table runs exactly on speed. A 5% reduction in line voltage seems to be about the most that can be tolerated before this effect becomes noticeable, and does appreciably reduce noise.
Polishing both the motor and stepped pulleys periodically will help to keep things quiet. Try wetting the belt with a little alcohol and if things get drastically quieter a polish is in order. The recommended "talc" fix is a short term solution - the noise always comes back.
The belt is definitely a critical ingredient to both noise and speed performance. I've tried a lot, and have found the Schopper belts to be closest in terms of performance to the originals - I have a few 50+yr old belts that are still OK. Thicker belts exacerbate the excessive speed problem so try to find ones that are as thin as the original.
The new torquier motor is probably going to force you to keep the brake magnet in very close proximity to the stepped pulley in order to maintain the correct speed when fully warmed up. Increase the gap and you may find that the table runs too fast regardless of setting. You can slightly reduce the voltage to the motor, but I have found to my chagrin that carried to reasonable limits this can sap the table of a lot of its dynamic character - I don't know why this is so as the table runs exactly on speed. A 5% reduction in line voltage seems to be about the most that can be tolerated before this effect becomes noticeable, and does appreciably reduce noise.
Polishing both the motor and stepped pulleys periodically will help to keep things quiet. Try wetting the belt with a little alcohol and if things get drastically quieter a polish is in order. The recommended "talc" fix is a short term solution - the noise always comes back.
on the subject of Simone Lucchetti and his TD124 pages
...when we visit his site (audiosilente.com) and use the google translator to try and make sense of it, it becomes apparent that Lucchetti is operating a business that, not only produces spare parts and free advice for the restoration of the TD124, produces a turntable of his own design and mfr.
It should be no surprise that a look inside this turntable reveals a remarkable similarity to the drive train of the TD124. He has all of his mechanicals mounted within a solid graphite chassis. His platter is similar in dimension to the iron TD124 platter, except that he machines his out of brass/bronze.
Here's a link to a review of the turntable in pdf form. fortunately the review is clearly translated into English and easy to read.
http://www.audiosilente.altervista.org/alterpages/files/blackstone.pdf
Worth the time it takes to read it, I'd think and well within the context of this thread about refurbishing the Thorens TD124.
-Steve
...when we visit his site (audiosilente.com) and use the google translator to try and make sense of it, it becomes apparent that Lucchetti is operating a business that, not only produces spare parts and free advice for the restoration of the TD124, produces a turntable of his own design and mfr.
It should be no surprise that a look inside this turntable reveals a remarkable similarity to the drive train of the TD124. He has all of his mechanicals mounted within a solid graphite chassis. His platter is similar in dimension to the iron TD124 platter, except that he machines his out of brass/bronze.
Here's a link to a review of the turntable in pdf form. fortunately the review is clearly translated into English and easy to read.
http://www.audiosilente.altervista.org/alterpages/files/blackstone.pdf
Worth the time it takes to read it, I'd think and well within the context of this thread about refurbishing the Thorens TD124.
-Steve
I agree. His account of how he came to design his own turntable is pretty interesting. If I remember right, he got to the point where he felt he'd re-created so many of the main components used in a TD-124 that he figured going the rest of the way was the thing to do.
One of my questions with the TD124 is beyond controlling the velocity of the platter, how important is the eddy brake in keeping the instantaneous velocity constant during playback. Obviously the brake is loading the motor and making it work harder (and apparently noisier) and increasing its temperature. I would love to listen to music with the motor driven by a low impedance quiet sine wave generator with voltage and frequency adjustment both with and without the eddy brake.
When experimenting with the voltage levels through a variac, might some of the changes be due to the variac's impedance/isolation rather than just the voltage? Naim's armageddon supply for the lp12 motor is essentially a 500VA torroidal transformer with electrostatic shielding with passive phase shifting for the motor windings.
When experimenting with the voltage levels through a variac, might some of the changes be due to the variac's impedance/isolation rather than just the voltage? Naim's armageddon supply for the lp12 motor is essentially a 500VA torroidal transformer with electrostatic shielding with passive phase shifting for the motor windings.
I have tried large variacs (1kVA) to power my tables and currently have a buck box capable of more than 500VA and it I believe it is entirely down to voltage..
I am working on a 3 phase source for a td-124 aussenlaufer motor that came my way recently. This source will be variable frequency and I plan to disable the eddy current brake entirely when I finally install it after completing the source.
I am working on a 3 phase source for a td-124 aussenlaufer motor that came my way recently. This source will be variable frequency and I plan to disable the eddy current brake entirely when I finally install it after completing the source.
I'll second Kevin's comments re: dust covers.
If you get the type that is not hinged to the plinth, you have to have a place to put it while you operate the player, changing records and the like. If you get the hinged-to-the-plinth type, the open cover becomes an acoustic reflector......and very near the tonearm!
These days I avoid dust covers except for those vintage players that come with them. Those I take care of because the dust cover has considerable value when in near mint condition. It will raise the 2nd hand value of any vintage machine. Otherwise, I avoid them.
re: dust and my record players. I keep an unused "soft" paint brush in the listening room. I use it to keep the record players, and their tonearms dusted. The brush is relatively safe around fragile and expensive cartridge stylii. No worries about snaging a cantilever with the brush, but you might with a dust cloth.
For the other gear, like amps and cd players, speakers, etc, I use a dust cloth.
-Steve
I live on a farm with a dusty road and house dogs. I have an old Dual dustcover that would sort of work, but agree with Steve as to where to put it when the TT is in use. Has anyone tried a light cloth like the Stanton CTC-1 Cloth Turntable Cover or any other thoughts? I like the brush idea.
I suppose I could vacuum more, but then I can't hear the music.
I suppose I could vacuum more, but then I can't hear the music.