That's right. A 61 year old metal head.
I want to build an 18" mono sub and need advice. Not even sure what cabinet alignment to start with. I am leaning toward at least a bass reflex or maybe a scoop. I don't think I favor folded horns. I was the desk man in my younger years for a local out-door PA provider. We had 8 (4 per side) EV 15 "W" folded horns for the bass. I recall the people in front of the stage sipping tea while the windows two blocks away were rattling. I feel as though the folded horns may be more of a projection type of box whereas I prefer something more "near-field". I'm looking for the "punch you in the gut and part you hair at the same time" type of sub. Flat response does not interest me. Matter of fact, I would prefer a rock'n kick drum peak designed in.
I need help choosing the correct box first. Then the driver and finally box tuning.
Please go easy on me, it takes me a while to absorb everything! LOL.
Thanks, Al.
I want to build an 18" mono sub and need advice. Not even sure what cabinet alignment to start with. I am leaning toward at least a bass reflex or maybe a scoop. I don't think I favor folded horns. I was the desk man in my younger years for a local out-door PA provider. We had 8 (4 per side) EV 15 "W" folded horns for the bass. I recall the people in front of the stage sipping tea while the windows two blocks away were rattling. I feel as though the folded horns may be more of a projection type of box whereas I prefer something more "near-field". I'm looking for the "punch you in the gut and part you hair at the same time" type of sub. Flat response does not interest me. Matter of fact, I would prefer a rock'n kick drum peak designed in.
I need help choosing the correct box first. Then the driver and finally box tuning.
Please go easy on me, it takes me a while to absorb everything! LOL.
Thanks, Al.
with 4 subs per side, its likely the reason people stage front were sipping tea because they were smack dab in the middle of power alley. This has little to do with the type of sub, and everything to do with the implementation of the sub stacks.
the biggest issue her is even with a great sub, if your Main speakers are slouches, you lose out on a lot of the midbass (unless you cross the sub high, which *could* work, but generally causes issues). A short horn can work wonders for "Rock'n kick drum peak" although it will do little below that.
Something like half (or even a full) USB sub might do you good. http://www.freespeakerplans.com/images/stories/articles/usb/usbplans.jpg
Easy build, no bigger than your usual 18 (or dual 18 if you build a full one).
the biggest issue her is even with a great sub, if your Main speakers are slouches, you lose out on a lot of the midbass (unless you cross the sub high, which *could* work, but generally causes issues). A short horn can work wonders for "Rock'n kick drum peak" although it will do little below that.
Something like half (or even a full) USB sub might do you good. http://www.freespeakerplans.com/images/stories/articles/usb/usbplans.jpg
Easy build, no bigger than your usual 18 (or dual 18 if you build a full one).
Every doubling of distance decreases level by 6db. So unless there's a null in front of the stage, it will be louder up front than way in the back.
There's ways to direct the sound waves from subs, and they work well. Barn doors, mouth extenders etc. Or even digitally if you have an array of subs.
There's ways to direct the sound waves from subs, and they work well. Barn doors, mouth extenders etc. Or even digitally if you have an array of subs.
Here subs types with pic from bandpass bose, with full article here
System Guide | TC Sounds
Audio Innovation - by Dan Marx www.danmarx.org
University 3-Way Speaker System Enclosure plans
So Al what are your main speakers/amps. What are you expecting from your system working with the full range, or are you just building subs for the sake of it and because you are having fun. 😀
Attachments
Well, first off, I was the guy walking the venue with the SPL meter.
Secondly, the EV folded Wbins were not subwoofers.
Thirdly, I'm now sorry I mentioned the stage reference.
Fourthly, please quit beating me up and try to school me. LOL
Fifthly, my low mids are 12" Thiele cabs w/EV12L drivers, my upper mids are Peerless 5" sealed back and the tweets are unknown soft domes.
I feel left out. Did I miss something?
Thanks, Al.
Secondly, the EV folded Wbins were not subwoofers.
Thirdly, I'm now sorry I mentioned the stage reference.
Fourthly, please quit beating me up and try to school me. LOL
Fifthly, my low mids are 12" Thiele cabs w/EV12L drivers, my upper mids are Peerless 5" sealed back and the tweets are unknown soft domes.
I feel left out. Did I miss something?
Thanks, Al.
Hey Inductor! Thanks for the links (didn't look at them yet).
We had University upper mid horns on the out door PA. They were huge, 4ft square mouths. We hated placing those on top of the stacks!
Looks like you got your post off before my earlier reply. You can find my junk there.
My amps are old, too.
Phase Linear 700 Series II on bass
Phase Linear 400 DRS on low mid
A couple of choices for the upper mid/tweet passive x-over (was active)
I'm having fun and want to hear some basic +100db Metal!
Thanks, Al.
We had University upper mid horns on the out door PA. They were huge, 4ft square mouths. We hated placing those on top of the stacks!
Looks like you got your post off before my earlier reply. You can find my junk there.
My amps are old, too.
Phase Linear 700 Series II on bass
Phase Linear 400 DRS on low mid
A couple of choices for the upper mid/tweet passive x-over (was active)
I'm having fun and want to hear some basic +100db Metal!
Thanks, Al.
lol, we're not trying to school you, but if the spl meter was reading quieter in the front of the room (near the subs) than it was at the back, then you clearly has placement issues.
Al,
Yes, back in the bad old days we could not afford to properly align folded horn bass to the rest of the PA, you missed the transition when it became quite affordable and more common.
You also probably missed that excursion has quadrupled on bass drivers compared to the W bins you heard, doubling excursion can allow for 6 dB more output per driver, quadrupling 12 dB more.
Nothing wrong with bass reflex cabs, you just need twice as much power and drivers to achieve the same SPL on your dB meter or feel in your chest, gut or trouser legs.
At one point (1978) I almost went with EV 15Bs in TL cabs, but opted for straight horns (could not afford to properly align folded horn bass to the rest of the PA) then later went to bass reflex (could not fit 45" deep straight horns in many venues), now am very happy with my Keystone subs.
One of them (with enough power) will more than keep up with four EV12" TL cabs with dome mid/high.
Like the suit salesman says, "I guarantee it".
Art
PS
I loved the Phase Linear amps till the output transistors went and ate my favorite speakers, full DC PSU output ...
Using Flame Linear amps, I'd be inclined to go with cheaper drivers than my favorites, (and still use conservative output fuses) but one Lab 12" off each side of the 700 in the Keystone will get you 125 dB of head banging metal, even though the series two has no where near the guts of the "Blue Light" 700s.
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Hi Art. Those were the days, body won't allow that much fun anymore!
We used the time alignment features of the Rane X-overs. As I recall, something like Hi's one foot back. Upper mid's 5ft, lower mids 3ft and bass 17ft.
Well, anyway, I can't afford two expensive drivers in a sofisticated box. I'm collecting checks for the government. remember? One 18 will keep me on PBJ's for three months!
Flame Linear LOL haven't heard that in years.
Thanks, Al.
We used the time alignment features of the Rane X-overs. As I recall, something like Hi's one foot back. Upper mid's 5ft, lower mids 3ft and bass 17ft.
Well, anyway, I can't afford two expensive drivers in a sofisticated box. I'm collecting checks for the government. remember? One 18 will keep me on PBJ's for three months!
Flame Linear LOL haven't heard that in years.
Thanks, Al.
You can also try a smaller driver like 15" and 12" and use a sealed and EQ the hell out it to raise the bottom end with a powerful amp. This is my plan for now with the Eminence LAB12. I should have gone for the 15" though. Also, a ported 12" midwoofer arrays that reaches 60Hz would give you a nice fast kickdrum I think. 🙂
An array is probably what you need to reach the same levels of a dual driver folded horn.
What do you have for midbass solution anyway? Heavy metal requires a great midbass solution and the rest is lesss important.
An array is probably what you need to reach the same levels of a dual driver folded horn.
What do you have for midbass solution anyway? Heavy metal requires a great midbass solution and the rest is lesss important.
half usb sub. loaded with an BC 18tbx100 OR (for extreme budget limitations) with the dayton audio PA460-8. could even do a full usb with the daytons likely.
Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer | 295-036
Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer | 295-036
You don't need expensive 18" for what you want to do, and though a TH takes more savvy to design than a ported box, this one uses about the same parts count:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html
There are some Alpine drivers that would work well and might only require 1.5 months of PBJ's, or less, depending on what kind of mule the govt. provides you.
You can go way cheaper (and even easier to build) than that too- my TH "Tub sub" (sits behind the hot tub) uses two $5 buyout speakers and can do well over 100 dB outdoors with a fraction of the power you have available. Post # 8 here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/227541-500-diy-subwoofer-challenge.html
Any half decent wood butcher can make a Tub Sub in a day, and be head banging the same night.
Art
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That should sound very good. I am going to build something similar with Meyer Milo drivers. Don't you want to make the volume bigger? If you can get the EVM12's to go lower you wouldn't feel such a strong need for a sub. I may be wrong on this but I don't think a sub should be used for anything above 80Hz, preferably lower even. A good midbass for metal would be sometjing that can reach 60Hz or at least 70Hz. A subwoofer that can reach 25Hz contains so much garbage above 80Hz and should not be used to fill in for a midwoofer with wimpy midbass. This is how I am thinking, but I will see what I end up with.
As a speaker engineer I feel compelled to say "Well, but it should!" (See below)
The thing is, bumps in response imply wiggles in the time domain-that is, sloppy bass. Trust me, you'll be much happier with the sound if you have a powerful yet tight response. You can always EQ with an EQ if you need to, especially since different albums have different sound/mix. A fixed bump in the speaker may sometimes be pleasing, but other times horrid.
Given what you stated before, I'd recommend a vented box with big (=high flow) ports. I'd tune it to have a smooth, drooping response (that is, instead of being flat as low as possible, tune it somewhat lower for tighter response. And never tune much above 30 Hz, that's just a recipe for barry, boomy sound).
Also, you might well be better off with two subs maybe with 12" or 15" instead of one humungous 18." Unless you can find an Aurasound 1808, I can design you a heck of a box for that old friend! 5 kW Crest or Crown, no problem!
As for mid bass, I absolutely agree with the above comments. You need a very strong mid bass, and you need a clean, phase-coherent transition between sub and mid. All the lows in the world will not sound "powerful" if the overlap is not good. To achieve that, you need flexible active crossovers or Audyssey or better yet both.
The cheap way to go digital is to use a hybrid, a cheap minidsp 2x4 that converts analog to digital where you can fix many things (not all) via Windows, and then out again analog with four outputs. One for sub and the rest for your current setup that has a passive crossover. Unless you are very modern and can feed the minidsp optical toslink from the start.
If I may ask you about my own project. I have a sealed sub that I am quite happy with, but no proper midbass speaker yet. I am using horns above 150Hz and the horn community does not take kindly to my plans to fix midbass with a ported midbass array. Some say a sealed cabinet with EQ would be better, because ported would not fit with the sound of the horns.The horns have a closed back chamber and a very fast sound, that I guess does not fit with ported midbass cabs. I will have four 12" woofer with huge nd magnets that in a ported design reaches 60-300Hz. I would guess in a sealed cabinet they would only reach 100Hz, maybe 120Hz. I know how bad EQ can sound, but I have also experienced flabby ported designs. Which would be best to my horns do you think?
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