Same words also for cassette players ( see...Nakamichi) or R2R
Or for cars---Now the trend is Food, gourmet etc.
Cigars?
And what about matress in beds ? Soft-semisoft-hard ?! The pillow may have lot of tweakings too😛
The no-pillow experience for an all-time straight vertebral column 🙄
High-end ? The market determines it.
I've really havo no interest in it- me so borderline no...bored-line
Or for cars---Now the trend is Food, gourmet etc.
Cigars?
And what about matress in beds ? Soft-semisoft-hard ?! The pillow may have lot of tweakings too😛
The no-pillow experience for an all-time straight vertebral column 🙄
High-end ? The market determines it.
I've really havo no interest in it- me so borderline no...bored-line
Same words also for cassette players ( see...Nakamichi) or R2R
Or for cars---Now the trend is Food, gourmet etc.
Cigars?
And what about matress in beds ? Soft-semisoft-hard ?! The pillow may have lot of tweakings too😛
The no-pillow experience for an all-time straight vertebral column 🙄
High-end ? The market determines it.
I've really havo no interest in it- me so borderline no...bored-line
Question: if you are not interest, why bothering commenting? 😱
I'm commenting you that is commenting him that is commenting anyone
My name is Tony, you know, the saint...the chain...
My name is Tony, you know, the saint...the chain...
Oh gosh! You mean Antonio? You are very funny!! Can't hold my self back anymore from laughing, therefore time for me to go to bed before I pee on the semi-soft/hard mattress!!
Yes, easy to 'nicefy' the sound with analog filters; all of which are readily producible by digital techniques.
Thread could easily be titled "How is a turntable better compared to CD"; this is equivalent to: "How is a turntable better compared to digital with sample rate 44.1kHz and 16bits of depth.
Digital is capable of capturing noise of even best studio analog tape, along with entire recorded signal. All recorded signals ride on top of this.
With digital, independent channels are just that; with vinyl crosstalk exists both in cutting head and with pickup. Very best cartridges only have channel separation of 45dB; and this at 1kHz.
Digital captures DC to 22kHz; mechanical recording requires RIAA filter to reduce LF content and corresponding inverse filter in phono preamplifier to boost it back up. Good performance requires good matching of filters at cutting head and in phono preamplifiers; four filters total for stereo that have to work across audio band. Digital only requires cutting extraneous signals above Nyquist frequency.
Phono pickup represents real mass/spring system. In order to track complex signal, stylus must be able to track a single frequency twice as high as highest frequency signal present in track. Standard technique for adjusting tracking force and anti-skating is with single tone at about 300Hz; procedure reveals that no pivot tonearm is capable of good performance across record surface even for single tone.
With rigid record tracking errors lead to stylus becoming lathe. Vinyl formulations for records is compliant and undergoes deformation under stylus. In theory it springs back to original state. Reality is that tracking force and coefficient of friction with moving groove leads to instantaneous heating that leads to changes in groove. 1.5g on tiny stylus translates to enormous force. Ware and tear are inevitable.
Digital captures all information in desired bandwidth, from single frequencies to fully modulated white noise. Perfect reconstruction of analog signal occurs. For records, groove is the information, and every reading is different.
The thread OP checked out after about eight posts. Didn't take too long to make a decision.
Sure, record concept has a certain elegant appeal and historical significance. All its flaws and shortcomings remain unchanged from Edison's original proof of concept. Underlying concept is that sound may be treated as information that may be stored and retrieved.
Records remain stuck in original rut. Underlying concepts of information have bloomed and flourished.
Moving forward is better than remaining stuck in rut.
Trips down memory lane are wonderful; clinging to the past as better than the present is delusional.
Data point
When I was young, we often debated the glories of Furtwangler versus Toscanini. But there was never a doubt that Toscanini and his NBC band was untouchable in a transcription of the scherzo from Beethoven's 13th quartet. For me, it remains a highlight of recorded music.
The scherzo - esp. in the manner of Toscanini's usual too-fast treatment - just whizzes by at an astounding rate of speed. This sense of speed and consequently gripping your attention tightly, was partly a result of the 78 rpm noises (which couldn't be edited out at the time).
Funny thing, sounds just as great dubbed to a CD.
(Seems to defy the Laws of Newton or Shannon or somebody, but I couldn't believe how much better many of my best records sounded after some DSP and dubbing to CDs, when I did the big switch-over 10 yrs ago.)
Ben
landed on this thread by accident, moving on now
When I was young, we often debated the glories of Furtwangler versus Toscanini. But there was never a doubt that Toscanini and his NBC band was untouchable in a transcription of the scherzo from Beethoven's 13th quartet. For me, it remains a highlight of recorded music.
The scherzo - esp. in the manner of Toscanini's usual too-fast treatment - just whizzes by at an astounding rate of speed. This sense of speed and consequently gripping your attention tightly, was partly a result of the 78 rpm noises (which couldn't be edited out at the time).
Funny thing, sounds just as great dubbed to a CD.
(Seems to defy the Laws of Newton or Shannon or somebody, but I couldn't believe how much better many of my best records sounded after some DSP and dubbing to CDs, when I did the big switch-over 10 yrs ago.)
Ben
landed on this thread by accident, moving on now
Mr Kevin,
merely out of curiosity, what kind of pre-pre and cartridge do you use ?
(gathered you're into TD124 + SME)
Arguing the technical merits is not what this thread is about , comparisions done by digital transfer as Sy suggest misses the point, this is not how consumers experience the medium because in reality its not whats available to you .
So go out and purchase a CD and an LP of a particular recording , any, then play them back and compare , this is where CD fails vs analog, this is whats important to consumers , nothing to do with the fact that hi-rez digital maybe better than analog , it has to do with the fact that the medium fails to deliver to the market that Which it has promised for the last 35 yrs ....
Regards
So go out and purchase a CD and an LP of a particular recording , any, then play them back and compare , this is where CD fails vs analog, this is whats important to consumers , nothing to do with the fact that hi-rez digital maybe better than analog , it has to do with the fact that the medium fails to deliver to the market that Which it has promised for the last 35 yrs ....
Regards
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No SME in this setup, TD-124/II on a slate plinth, Schick 12" arm, Ortofon Royal N SPU on an AT Technihard 18gm shell, Lundahl LL1941 amorphous core SUTs, and Muscovite phono stage. (My most recent design)
I also have a Meister Silver SPU, and a GM E II SPU, but prefer the Royal N.
My system is positively stone age, many glowing things, lots of transformers in the audio path, Onkens with alnico JBL horns on top. Definitely lo fi, how could I have gone so wrong?? 😱😱 😀
Somehow it all works, and I hear music.. 😛
I have a cd with a recording of a high end turn table with pluto arm. And what surprises the man who made the recording and also me. The High end turn table sound also is reproduced on the cd! as depth and soundstage
I use a TD124 with Rega RB300 and a goldring 1012gx.
Since I got a 24bit dac with the right Op-amps I like the digital reproduction better then my vinyl. the digital sound stage is more correct cohered.
The goldring sounds as tight as a cd player only a bit thinner and yes I compare the sound level to that of the digital stuf. Analog sounds more lively due the little tiks and noise level. Only the vinyl sound a bit out of phase to me, I checked my equipment used different phono stages and amplifiers and speakers. Till now digital wins in my set.
I will buy a Denon DL301mk2 as last test to get better results as far I know it is better then the dl103/r.
And a while ago I was listening to a set with BD-horns And there a did hear the best sound ever and it was digital.
My conclusion was he did get the last bit detail by the transformer volume control, shiga clone cd drive and the DAC with output transformers so no capacitors in the pre-stage.
No vinyl noise no jitter only very peaceful music reproduction with refinement through micro detail the micro detail made the reproduction so realistic played on normal level where you can talk with each other and understand each other.
So or I never spend enough on pickup gear , or others never bother to optimize their digital stuff good enough. I like the PCM1793 as my best sounding dac and the capasitors in the amplifier f*ck up the results of your analog gear. The best audiocap is no capacitor.
I use a TD124 with Rega RB300 and a goldring 1012gx.
Since I got a 24bit dac with the right Op-amps I like the digital reproduction better then my vinyl. the digital sound stage is more correct cohered.
The goldring sounds as tight as a cd player only a bit thinner and yes I compare the sound level to that of the digital stuf. Analog sounds more lively due the little tiks and noise level. Only the vinyl sound a bit out of phase to me, I checked my equipment used different phono stages and amplifiers and speakers. Till now digital wins in my set.
I will buy a Denon DL301mk2 as last test to get better results as far I know it is better then the dl103/r.
And a while ago I was listening to a set with BD-horns And there a did hear the best sound ever and it was digital.
My conclusion was he did get the last bit detail by the transformer volume control, shiga clone cd drive and the DAC with output transformers so no capacitors in the pre-stage.
No vinyl noise no jitter only very peaceful music reproduction with refinement through micro detail the micro detail made the reproduction so realistic played on normal level where you can talk with each other and understand each other.
So or I never spend enough on pickup gear , or others never bother to optimize their digital stuff good enough. I like the PCM1793 as my best sounding dac and the capasitors in the amplifier f*ck up the results of your analog gear. The best audiocap is no capacitor.
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If the masters are different, they'll sound different. That has nothing to do with the format. Heck, different pressings and masters all on LP format sound different. And the higher noise and distortion of the LP, as well as poorer pitch stability, higher crosstalk, and poorer separation, would indeed make it easy to distinguish from an audibly transparent medium like CD.
I haven't had the opportunity to press LPs from my own masters, but I would bet several vital organs that I could distinguish the LP from the master and could not distinguish the CD from the master (the latter is something I *have* tried). I would bet the same organs that you couldn't, either.
SY, You're a 105 yrs old, there is not much left to trade and you would lose.... 🙂
Again , I'm comparing whats available to the consumer, I have recordings done by telarc digital, both CD and LP, the LP betters the CD on every comparision. So again, go out and purchase two copies, compare and let me know, this is real world comparison ...
Again , I'm comparing whats available to the consumer, I have recordings done by telarc digital, both CD and LP, the LP betters the CD on every comparision. So again, go out and purchase two copies, compare and let me know, this is real world comparison ...
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Sound stage incoherent ,
you're having setup issues, analog is far from being incoherent. Again noisy vinyl is from poor tracking (unless bad LP) Buy good Vinyl and surface noise perception is almost as quite as CD. CD cant do stage show recordings as well, voices sound and size the same way for all , where analog does small voices and big voices , correctly sized. CD does excel on single instruments, Piano's for eg are better on digital ..
So you're not comparing the medium, you're comparing different masters. Of course they sound different - probably because one mastering engineer tried to outmaster (love that word) his predecessor. Happens all the time.
jan
It might be instructive to devise a blind test protocol. The last step is to see if people could consistently (or some people very consistently) choose one format as "better sounding."
But to do that, you'd have to make the test fair by setting up two systems with identical frequency responses and then showing nobody could tell apart LPs from CDs.... just as Stan Lipshitz showed you couldn't tell differences once the frequency responses of two systems are identical.
Is it a logical impossibility to ask partisans to "prove" they truly can't tell things apart and then asking them to demonstrate which they consistently prefer?
Ben
But to do that, you'd have to make the test fair by setting up two systems with identical frequency responses and then showing nobody could tell apart LPs from CDs.... just as Stan Lipshitz showed you couldn't tell differences once the frequency responses of two systems are identical.
Is it a logical impossibility to ask partisans to "prove" they truly can't tell things apart and then asking them to demonstrate which they consistently prefer?
Ben
You are not realistic about the noise level sorry.
I do a lot on speaker filter tuning the remarks on analog sound voices ex-cetera you can get right when you buy the right speaker or tune it good your self.
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