Scott,
I understand what you are saying about the height of the A7 or the Ubangi. I don't see any reason that a Ubangi type enclosure could not be done with a single 15" speaker, you would just delete the center divider section and scale it for the single 15". I see your design you have left off the port section and I am in agreement with that, I know others have commented on the same thing. If you ever look at one of the earlier Eastern Acoustics Works, EAW. enclosures this is what they were known for.
I understand what you are saying about the height of the A7 or the Ubangi. I don't see any reason that a Ubangi type enclosure could not be done with a single 15" speaker, you would just delete the center divider section and scale it for the single 15". I see your design you have left off the port section and I am in agreement with that, I know others have commented on the same thing. If you ever look at one of the earlier Eastern Acoustics Works, EAW. enclosures this is what they were known for.
I also like the horn loaded 10" for midrange - works great.
However it doesn't seem necessary at the power levels used for home Hi-Fi. Going from a 15" to a 1.4" compression driver a tiny powers isn't hard. Or 12" to 1". It's when you have to fill large spaces that the 10" mid comes in handy.
I need detailed midrangem which excludes large cone drivers. It is the most fun range to me, who like jazz and slow music.
Pano and Rewind,
That is the reason that I developed the 6 1/2" small format mid horn. I originally did this for floor monitors that had a single 15" or 12" and a single 1" compression driver. The sound was much improved in the critical midrange for vocal monitoring in a live situation. One of the secondary benefits was that feedback through the mics was much reduced also and a higher level was achievable before this problem reared it ugly head.
That is the reason that I developed the 6 1/2" small format mid horn. I originally did this for floor monitors that had a single 15" or 12" and a single 1" compression driver. The sound was much improved in the critical midrange for vocal monitoring in a live situation. One of the secondary benefits was that feedback through the mics was much reduced also and a higher level was achievable before this problem reared it ugly head.
Yes Pano,
A 6 1/2" cone driven horn. Works real nice to fill in that area above a 15" and below a 1" compression driver.
A 6 1/2" cone driven horn. Works real nice to fill in that area above a 15" and below a 1" compression driver.
What driver was it and how did it look like? I see a lot of cones in horns from the states and more compression driver horns in Europe. Personally I dont feel a cone driver has much interesting to be played in a horn. I will however try to hornload a greencone.
I don't understand what's so hard about a little deductive reasoning.
1. There is something about using compression drivers in the low region that fascinates people, if it is done right.
2. Many four inch diaphragm drivers like the Radian 950 reportedly did not cut it. (Fane 8" was still better)
3. WE555 on WE15A is a combination that does so well even to under 100hz that no one seems to forget the experience.
4. The K55/Atlas drivers are identical to the WE555 on all the relevant points to get it to the performance of the WE
5: A guy in Germany has gotten the K55 to WE555 level and has done all the R&D for us to just copy it cheaply
6. "constant directivity" horns like the later Econo-Wave designs by Seos sound better from about 1khz up then
many/most/all? Tractrix iterations.
7. Put 1 and 1 together and let each driver/horn combination do what it does best.
8. Enjoy your 3 way system until the market has actually brought fourth the affordable compression driver
that beats the modified cheap K55.
9: Be creative. There are many horn contours up to 1khz that sound good if done right: Exponential, hyperbolic, tractrix, conical.
10. If possible use very good open baffle cone speakers like Saba Greencones (level matched) to evaluate your under1khz horn.
Only if the horn turned out really, really, good it can match such a design.
Sometimes I wonder if I really need a horn from 80hz to 1khz after hearing what the Saba's can do in that range.
The tone, speed and transient response is just fantastic. 95 db spl is just not efficient enough to match the dynamics of the CD Horn.
A stack of 4 Saba's could work but I don't want to spend another 200 Euro to find out that it doesn't work well.
If anybody has experience with multiple drivers below about 1khz please let me know.
Klaus
1. There is something about using compression drivers in the low region that fascinates people, if it is done right.
2. Many four inch diaphragm drivers like the Radian 950 reportedly did not cut it. (Fane 8" was still better)
3. WE555 on WE15A is a combination that does so well even to under 100hz that no one seems to forget the experience.
4. The K55/Atlas drivers are identical to the WE555 on all the relevant points to get it to the performance of the WE
5: A guy in Germany has gotten the K55 to WE555 level and has done all the R&D for us to just copy it cheaply
6. "constant directivity" horns like the later Econo-Wave designs by Seos sound better from about 1khz up then
many/most/all? Tractrix iterations.
7. Put 1 and 1 together and let each driver/horn combination do what it does best.
8. Enjoy your 3 way system until the market has actually brought fourth the affordable compression driver
that beats the modified cheap K55.
9: Be creative. There are many horn contours up to 1khz that sound good if done right: Exponential, hyperbolic, tractrix, conical.
10. If possible use very good open baffle cone speakers like Saba Greencones (level matched) to evaluate your under1khz horn.
Only if the horn turned out really, really, good it can match such a design.
Sometimes I wonder if I really need a horn from 80hz to 1khz after hearing what the Saba's can do in that range.
The tone, speed and transient response is just fantastic. 95 db spl is just not efficient enough to match the dynamics of the CD Horn.
A stack of 4 Saba's could work but I don't want to spend another 200 Euro to find out that it doesn't work well.
If anybody has experience with multiple drivers below about 1khz please let me know.
Klaus
I am so sorry I have seen that you basically ask me two times for information
and I did not answer.
I will send you a PM with his email. I hope he dosn't mind. His english seems to
be good as he answered a few questions in the Sato and in the WE thread that
where ask in English.
Klaus
Rewind,
I'll see if I can find a picture of the mid horn, not sure I have one in my picture files.
I'll see if I can find a picture of the mid horn, not sure I have one in my picture files.
Great, I might use it for tha acclaimed Saba Greencone I have sitting. It has a nice ring to it when I tap the membrane.
@Kindhornman, it would be useful to know the commercial names/brand for the products you mentioned, as there may be images online.
@everyone, seems to me that there is a vast difference between the requirements for PS/SR work and home hi-fi.
In practical terms most of the advances in all pro drivers are focused on high SPL applications - of course this has the benefit of reducing the distortions back down at the typical SPL of a home hi-fi. However in the case of the K55 (modified or not) one can expect that at these lower SPLs the distortion products are low enough so as to be perhaps not a big concern.
Also, the A7 boxes, as far as I can tell the front loaded horn section on the LF driver was to "lift" the upper response of the driver so as to increase the max SPL in the upper mids AND to make the xover level of said LF driver closer to that of the horn on top (less attenuation required on the horn). In part this is why the A7 cabinets always had the reputation of not having not good low bass output. Imho, the box benefits from replacing the open "reflex" section with a series of large diameter ports.
@everyone, seems to me that there is a vast difference between the requirements for PS/SR work and home hi-fi.
In practical terms most of the advances in all pro drivers are focused on high SPL applications - of course this has the benefit of reducing the distortions back down at the typical SPL of a home hi-fi. However in the case of the K55 (modified or not) one can expect that at these lower SPLs the distortion products are low enough so as to be perhaps not a big concern.
Also, the A7 boxes, as far as I can tell the front loaded horn section on the LF driver was to "lift" the upper response of the driver so as to increase the max SPL in the upper mids AND to make the xover level of said LF driver closer to that of the horn on top (less attenuation required on the horn). In part this is why the A7 cabinets always had the reputation of not having not good low bass output. Imho, the box benefits from replacing the open "reflex" section with a series of large diameter ports.
Nope. At the moment my whole horn system is disasambled as we use the big
room we had for other purposes.
Now I need to contemplate on a compromize system with good WAF.
No easy task. I am rethinking the corner horn concept as it is a place in the
room that is usually not occupied and can be covered with a cloth of prefered
design. The most impressive corner horns are IMO from Steve Deckert of
Decware. Very smart concept with just one 180° bend. It can be driven front
or back loaded. Here is a pic of someone who build 4 of them.
2 stacked in the pic:
Klaus
Attachments
Bear,
It was not a commercially available horn. I produced these myself and they were only for a select few to use. I worked with PA companies here in California and sold them to people that I knew who weren't tied to name branded product. These are molded urethane horn lenses and as far as I know I was the originator of this material in a horn lens. I actually held a patent that I could have used at one time to extract money from many others but chose not to do that. This was a long time ago and I let the patent lapse. I will put up a picture when I can and I still have many of these horn lenses and I also still have the tooling to produce more if ever I decide there is a demand for them. I just moved away from waveguides when I went more towards consumer designed audio and now that I am around all the horn aficionados I see that there are others who may appreciate what it was that I did in the past.
ps. The JBL original Eon speaker line came from a sample of a waveguide that I showed to JBL when I was doing contract manufacturing for them on one of their consumer products.
It was not a commercially available horn. I produced these myself and they were only for a select few to use. I worked with PA companies here in California and sold them to people that I knew who weren't tied to name branded product. These are molded urethane horn lenses and as far as I know I was the originator of this material in a horn lens. I actually held a patent that I could have used at one time to extract money from many others but chose not to do that. This was a long time ago and I let the patent lapse. I will put up a picture when I can and I still have many of these horn lenses and I also still have the tooling to produce more if ever I decide there is a demand for them. I just moved away from waveguides when I went more towards consumer designed audio and now that I am around all the horn aficionados I see that there are others who may appreciate what it was that I did in the past.
ps. The JBL original Eon speaker line came from a sample of a waveguide that I showed to JBL when I was doing contract manufacturing for them on one of their consumer products.
The basked of the Saba needs to be sileced. For Horn loading I would substitude the alnico magnet with a very strong neodymium one to get
Qts down.
.
Yes, and the boost point is more or less >300Hz. I've had to tailor my crossover accordingly to that to get it flat. The front horn seems to help directivity in the mids, as well. And yes, the big port didn't help the bass. There are much better ways to tune the box, all of them I know involve a smaller port.
Rewind -- the SABA green cone is a strange driver. Sounds good but measures awful. It does need some EQ to work well.
Kindhornman. I have heard Lowthers in a big front horn and was surprised at how good they sounded. Don't know what was done with the crossover, but there was no Lowther shout. I was very surprised. 😉
Kindhornman. I have heard Lowthers in a big front horn and was surprised at how good they sounded. Don't know what was done with the crossover, but there was no Lowther shout. I was very surprised. 😉
Pano,
I think that many times the shout is caused by the throat configuration, but since I don't know the Lowthers horn I can only surmise that it doesn't have the typical throat shape.
I think that many times the shout is caused by the throat configuration, but since I don't know the Lowthers horn I can only surmise that it doesn't have the typical throat shape.