Hi Jonathan
Andy and myself have moved onto other interests. I can't speak for Andy, but I've achieved all I wanted in the hobby and to improve on the speakers I have, would be too difficult, time consuming and expensive. Besides, I have too many and have been getting rid of a lot.
I still view this forum but rarely post due to health issues and time constraints.
Hi Rabbitz,
Sorry to hear of your health issues and to hear you're no longer active.
As you can see I am still doing crazy things with what I learnt from you guys.
still building speakers in my hotel room.
I have moved to Indonesia now and have found the SB Acoutics factory around the corner, so will be doing some more things with those drivers.
cheers and good to hear from you.
Sorry to hear of your health issues and to hear you're no longer active.
As you can see I am still doing crazy things with what I learnt from you guys.
still building speakers in my hotel room.
I have moved to Indonesia now and have found the SB Acoutics factory around the corner, so will be doing some more things with those drivers.
cheers and good to hear from you.
You'd have to use a series coil. A cap would just be a xover point to the drivers that play a higher freq range.
Later,
Wolf
but both drivers are in series
how can I low pass xo just the one, without affecting the other
highpass xo would be the same for both
but both drivers are in series
how can I low pass xo just the one, without affecting the other
highpass xo would be the same for both
With regards to your drawing, the main xover point is at the junction of the upper drivers and lower drivers, as is seen in a standard SXO layout. Coil across the parallel 3, directly in series with the cap across the parallel 2.
This actually dictates having a 2-way philosophy.
There have been discussions I've been involved in in the past stating a cap across the 0.5 woofers in a parallel xover where the woofers were wired in series would work- and it doesn't. In theory it would work, in reality it doesn't hold water.
The easiest way to do a 1.5 way is to use a series coil on the lower units and parallel that directly with the upper units in PXO style. To do a SXO and make it 0.5 anything pretty much requires it be a 2+ way.
I suppose I should have been more clear earlier.
Later,
Wolf
A series coil on that left graphic's woofer sector would LP those. Parallel the 3 at the input to the coil and the other end of the woofers, and then a cap in series with the whole shabang or an active HP on the channel would get you the same HP for both.
The problem with this arrangement is that you are approaching line-array types of things. What is the goal for the 5 drivers?
I know I'm off-topic...
you're welcome,
Wolf
I do hope this series discussion manages to stay on-topic and actually INFORM, because most of them don't! 
Since Jonathan (chefsinc) started his SB 8" plus 1" project, I've spent a lot of time at Tony Gee's marvellous Humble Homemade Hifi website. The Extremon (found in components/downloads) is a very nice flat baffle 6" Paper plus 1" (SEAS 22TAF/G) design using a series network.
It's quite easy to get as good as you like using Parallel or Series networks, and you can throw some nice notches in with both. The interesting thing happens when you TIME ALIGN it by setting the tweeter back and flipping the polarity.
Suddenly you find all the notches are disastrous to phase, and you must dump them!
So you have to live with higher Fs resonance and 5kHz cone breakup. But the good news is 1) You get a simple fast circuit, and 2) All the resonances are PHASE ALIGNED, so may be less offensive. Series circuits become very appealing when time-aligned, but you CAN do similar stuff with parallel. Like metal cones, they are a strict discipline, but you will learn lots.
It's a matter of technique to adjust the circuits when dumping the notches, and I won't dwell on it, except to say that losing the 15uF DC-blocking capacitor was a very double-edged sword. But these are low-order circuits that make demands on drivers, and series filters tend to let a lot of low frequencies into the tweeter. So some drivers will work better than others, and SMOOTH is good. For instance, this polycone SEAS U18RNX/P looks fun.
After such an epic (IMO) post, I hope for some interesting replies...but I'm not getting my hopes up.
Since Jonathan (chefsinc) started his SB 8" plus 1" project, I've spent a lot of time at Tony Gee's marvellous Humble Homemade Hifi website. The Extremon (found in components/downloads) is a very nice flat baffle 6" Paper plus 1" (SEAS 22TAF/G) design using a series network.
It's quite easy to get as good as you like using Parallel or Series networks, and you can throw some nice notches in with both. The interesting thing happens when you TIME ALIGN it by setting the tweeter back and flipping the polarity.
Suddenly you find all the notches are disastrous to phase, and you must dump them!
So you have to live with higher Fs resonance and 5kHz cone breakup. But the good news is 1) You get a simple fast circuit, and 2) All the resonances are PHASE ALIGNED, so may be less offensive. Series circuits become very appealing when time-aligned, but you CAN do similar stuff with parallel. Like metal cones, they are a strict discipline, but you will learn lots.
It's a matter of technique to adjust the circuits when dumping the notches, and I won't dwell on it, except to say that losing the 15uF DC-blocking capacitor was a very double-edged sword. But these are low-order circuits that make demands on drivers, and series filters tend to let a lot of low frequencies into the tweeter. So some drivers will work better than others, and SMOOTH is good. For instance, this polycone SEAS U18RNX/P looks fun.
After such an epic (IMO) post, I hope for some interesting replies...but I'm not getting my hopes up.
Attachments
I do hope this series discussion manages to stay on-topic and actually INFORM, because most of them don't!
funny ...when looking at post dates....but why the 'mad man' ?
Dear S7,
with those sort of results from your simulations We are hoping you go ahead with the project that you have simulated. Looks like it will be a good one.
The more I listen to my SB8.1 the more I don't want to touch it. I am really happy how it has worked out. I truly can't hear the need for a notch in my design, not sure why but the woofer seems to be synergising so nicely with that crossover point. I think the tweeter is also a great one with any easy transition at FX.
I will try and add some more Hand drawn crossover schematics of my other 3 Designs for others to discuss and Simulate if they want.
After nearly seven years of tweaking My big main speakers are now really lovely.
The addition of the Satori tweeter to that design and some crossover mods have produced an amazing result.
The second design floorstanders with the addition of the Scan speak/peerless tweeter has also netted me a speaker so life like the voices of some albums seem to float right in front of my listening position it seems so real like they are in the room singing exclusively to me.
I am not at perfection yet but 7 years of fun is coming to a result that I would not change nor regret.
Fabulous hobby with lots of interesting things to learn.
There are quite of good people out there that take the time to teach you, suggest to you and coach you and to those people, my humble appreciation runs deep.
Relax and listen to the music
with those sort of results from your simulations We are hoping you go ahead with the project that you have simulated. Looks like it will be a good one.
The more I listen to my SB8.1 the more I don't want to touch it. I am really happy how it has worked out. I truly can't hear the need for a notch in my design, not sure why but the woofer seems to be synergising so nicely with that crossover point. I think the tweeter is also a great one with any easy transition at FX.
I will try and add some more Hand drawn crossover schematics of my other 3 Designs for others to discuss and Simulate if they want.
After nearly seven years of tweaking My big main speakers are now really lovely.
The addition of the Satori tweeter to that design and some crossover mods have produced an amazing result.
The second design floorstanders with the addition of the Scan speak/peerless tweeter has also netted me a speaker so life like the voices of some albums seem to float right in front of my listening position it seems so real like they are in the room singing exclusively to me.
I am not at perfection yet but 7 years of fun is coming to a result that I would not change nor regret.
Fabulous hobby with lots of interesting things to learn.
There are quite of good people out there that take the time to teach you, suggest to you and coach you and to those people, my humble appreciation runs deep.
Relax and listen to the music
Its a bummer the Acoustic Reality site is gone now. When I discovered it, it was a pretty cool design to try on different combos of mids and tweets. I happened to make it work nice with my Audax/LCY combo in my "Invit8tions" speakers. With the right drivers its almost a magical combo and sounds fantastic with minimal parts.
I've uploaded the image of the AR SXO so others can see whats needed to impliment this crossover design, good luck and have fun with it.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o624/6thplanet/arserialxover_zps2fb8a07d.jpg
I've uploaded the image of the AR SXO so others can see whats needed to impliment this crossover design, good luck and have fun with it.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o624/6thplanet/arserialxover_zps2fb8a07d.jpg
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Fercryinoutloud, is it hard to post an image? But I've put the AR-SXO and the Acoustic Reality Avinci One speaker below for posterity.
My hobbyhorse for the last couple of years has been figuring out how WLM did this lovely La Scala design with just 5 crossover components. The penny dropped! It's actually VERY NEAT.
What? And have all the WLM children starve? THIS is all you get!
My hobbyhorse for the last couple of years has been figuring out how WLM did this lovely La Scala design with just 5 crossover components. The penny dropped! It's actually VERY NEAT.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
What? And have all the WLM children starve? THIS is all you get!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Attachments
I do hope this series discussion manages to stay on-topic and actually INFORM, because most of them don't!
What's your problem? If you don't like certain posts, just skip over them. As far as I'm aware we are still allowed to answer questions on this forum and be sociable to members we've known for years.
It is admirable to model speakers for other members but using the same driver would be of more benefit and not just those that are similar. Taking existing projects found on the web and modelling them does not inform as these are usually well documented, including choices made along the way. It's these choices that make the difference from a good to great loudspeaker. Modelling is only part of the design and building process but very useful indeed. Best information is provided by those who have actually used the drivers, designed and built as this experience is very valuable for those that follow. It would be better to use examples of those loudspeakers you have built as you know the real world outcome and the choices made to get there.
Back to series crossovers. I tend to use standard 1st order series crossovers or AR series crossovers. The former is the first choice if possible but if not I go to the AR series as are more flexible in correction, phase, roll off etc. Very few of my speakers were able to be designed using the standard 1st order series as finding combination of drivers that are extremely well behaved (e.g. P13, 850488, 27TFFC, S2095) are hard to find so most of mine are AR series. Higher order standard series can be problematic and I've been told, lose some the the benefits of the 1st order series.
So my advice after designing and building 50+ speakers and you want to use a series crossover there are 3 rules: driver choice, driver choice, driver choice. This is where modelling pays off to weed out the unsuitable before you spend your coin. For easiest series crossover results, use an AR series as they are so easy to tweak in the software as well as the real world (more to follow).
I've done several SXO projects, and the thing system7 stated about notches is all wrong. If you use your notches right, and you can do that, then your reverse null will be just fine. I actually sim my xovers for SXO style in Jeff B's PCD, and it is very accurate. Tilting a cabinet back and flipping the tweeter polarity changes a lot more than just time domain things. Likely then you are off-axis from the tweeter, closer to on-axis with the woofer, and you literally just screwed up your phase from where it was aligned due to acoustic offset differences.
You can notch a SXO, and I've done this more than once. Better behaved drivers make PXO's easier too remember. It's not just for the SXO that this is a plus. Aluminum coned drivers create more challenges for both types of xovers, and both can deal with the issues.
Higher order series xovers can also be modeled in PCD, and I did this up to 4th order electrical on the tweeter and it didn't create any other signicant issues I'm aware of.
The thing I notice with lots of SXO designers is they tend to want a flat impedance. You also do not have to have this feature to get good sound from them. I have had a pretty bouncy impedance that any SS amp would be happy with, and it still sounds fine.
Ultimately- you have to know which compromises you want to make for your design in either method of xover, and whatever the results, you'll likely be able to achieve good sound.
Later,
Wolf
You can notch a SXO, and I've done this more than once. Better behaved drivers make PXO's easier too remember. It's not just for the SXO that this is a plus. Aluminum coned drivers create more challenges for both types of xovers, and both can deal with the issues.
Higher order series xovers can also be modeled in PCD, and I did this up to 4th order electrical on the tweeter and it didn't create any other signicant issues I'm aware of.
The thing I notice with lots of SXO designers is they tend to want a flat impedance. You also do not have to have this feature to get good sound from them. I have had a pretty bouncy impedance that any SS amp would be happy with, and it still sounds fine.
Ultimately- you have to know which compromises you want to make for your design in either method of xover, and whatever the results, you'll likely be able to achieve good sound.
Later,
Wolf
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