Great response guys! Much appreciated.
Felipe, these were bought over 10 years ago from Percy Audio so possibly same stock as yours!
Rob41, I haven't reformed them as I didn't think a Blackgate would have drifted this much. I'll give it a try though and report back. I can't say what vintage the "good" one is as it was purchased as used but I would agree with you that it seems odd to change the printing on the same value cap. Unless there is a large gap between production years?
Kevinkr, I don't know definitively what the maximum tolerance should be, (appreciate I'm only -15% out) but I would have thought this grade of cap would be less than 10%.
Larry Ng, Your tolerance measurements are what I would have expected, hence my suprise at what I got with mine.
These have never been soldered/used, just kept in my parts box. They were shorted out before measuring on my Fluke 189 so the readings are accurate. I'll take some more photos in daylight tomorrow afternoon and check my other Blackgates for tolerance and printing layout. I had already measured 4 NOS non-polars, 330uf, 100v, which were 337uf 338uf 338uf and 340uf, a maximum of 3%. These have been stored with the suspect ones. The printing
on these are different again! Confusing! If these weren't potentially so valuable, I'd cut them up. A bit drastic though if they are genuine.
Felipe, these were bought over 10 years ago from Percy Audio so possibly same stock as yours!
Rob41, I haven't reformed them as I didn't think a Blackgate would have drifted this much. I'll give it a try though and report back. I can't say what vintage the "good" one is as it was purchased as used but I would agree with you that it seems odd to change the printing on the same value cap. Unless there is a large gap between production years?
Kevinkr, I don't know definitively what the maximum tolerance should be, (appreciate I'm only -15% out) but I would have thought this grade of cap would be less than 10%.
Larry Ng, Your tolerance measurements are what I would have expected, hence my suprise at what I got with mine.
These have never been soldered/used, just kept in my parts box. They were shorted out before measuring on my Fluke 189 so the readings are accurate. I'll take some more photos in daylight tomorrow afternoon and check my other Blackgates for tolerance and printing layout. I had already measured 4 NOS non-polars, 330uf, 100v, which were 337uf 338uf 338uf and 340uf, a maximum of 3%. These have been stored with the suspect ones. The printing
on these are different again! Confusing! If these weren't potentially so valuable, I'd cut them up. A bit drastic though if they are genuine.
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Yes I sell second hand originals Black Gates bought to Michael Percy Audio USA, what's the problem if I can help someone asking if his caps are fakes or not.
How hard can it be to just plug them into a circuit and listen? Good or bad, their sonic signature is unmistakeable.
Taking one apart is another option.
It's kinda surprising there haven't been fakes around so far.
Taking one apart is another option.
It's kinda surprising there haven't been fakes around so far.
honestly, what were they originally other than fancy proto type caps, made with old outdated dry cap technology
I really expect the latest dry cap technology to be superiour
the off values you experience is probably why further devellopment stopped, and so the production
I guess they could buy the 'devellopment' caps
and even get the 'audio labelled' with Black gate name, rather cheap
but after it had been decided 'to go other ways' with dry cap production, it might have taken quite a bit bigger serious money to make them continue production
and the end of that 'adventure'
or the technology really had serious flaws
I really expect the latest dry cap technology to be superiour
the off values you experience is probably why further devellopment stopped, and so the production
I guess they could buy the 'devellopment' caps
and even get the 'audio labelled' with Black gate name, rather cheap
but after it had been decided 'to go other ways' with dry cap production, it might have taken quite a bit bigger serious money to make them continue production
and the end of that 'adventure'
or the technology really had serious flaws
If you bought to Michael Percy you don't have to worry about: these are for sure originals. When I measured brand new without use always the cap measured less. These 330uF 100V dimensions are 18mm x 36mm?
I'm a poor pensioner!!!!! I just wanted to sell them as NOS so I could eat this week 😀 but you make a good point about trying them in circuit. I don't think I'll chop them up just yet though.
Dean
Just to clarify, the 100uf 100v FK's came from Percy Audio. The 330uf's were obtained elsewhere and I'm happy they are genuine. Dimensions match and tolerance ties in with what Id expect.
Dean
like said, I have 100% originals with differences between the sizes
and smaller ones with rubber sealing
bigger ones with brown plate closing
like I said, I think it was a proto type devellopment production, which could explain some differences
but sure hope you are not going to sell Black Gate crap to members here
I'm sure there can be a lot of differences between originals. But, with as many fake transistors and capacitors as there are out there, is it really impossible that there could also be fake Black Gates out there?
valve 5425 could just have two originals that happen to be out of spec. It's just unfortunate there is no way to tell if they are real other than taking them apart.
At least you've got two 85uF caps if you need them. 😀
valve 5425 could just have two originals that happen to be out of spec. It's just unfortunate there is no way to tell if they are real other than taking them apart.
At least you've got two 85uF caps if you need them. 😀
Rest assured that unless I'm 100% convinced that the 100uf FK's are genuine they won't get sold, hence this thread! Anybody knowingly pushing fakes needs a dose of 1000v HT applied to specific areas. (sorry moderator)
😀man, guys, honestly, look at new caps with latest technology from Nichicon, NIC's, or whatever
The crazy thing is I've had these lying around for years and never used them! Most of the stuff I build is tube gear and uses PIO or film caps. I've a tub of used Blackgates I acquired when prices were low and just slot them in if there's an appropriate value. The current prices are quite frankly ridiculous and as such I can't justify having them lying around gathering dust. Mind you, if I hung onto them another 20 years I might be able to swap them for a car!
I'm currently waiting for the Subbu DAC group buy to come to fruition but even with that I'll just be putting in bog standard components initially. I take all claims as to what is or isn't the best with a pinch of salt as it's such a subjective thing. (that doesn't mean I haven't taken on board or don't appreciate your suggestions) Sometimes people think things sound fantastic just because they've paid a lot for it! Been there myself and then realised I've been kidding myself.
Just want to thank everyone again for their input.
My local importer (HK) told me long ago that he was ordering all Blackgates "directly" from Japan suppliers , that was the only way to get real ones . He is 98% out of stocks for every value now !
Not tried reforming the suspect 100uf FK's yet. I'll get that done over the weekend then I can be more sure as to the authenticity of these caps.
Some more photos below showing different print layouts. This info from a batch of around 35 new/used capacitors of various values. These were purchased more than ten years ago at a time when I wouldn't have thought it financially viable to fake them.
Generally "Rubycon" appears to be the same length as "Black Gate" but not always the case. See the 330uf 100v NP's and the 150uf 350v VK.
There appear to be two different fonts, one looking bolder than the other. Subtle, but there all the same. Difference in colouring as well, one brighter and "more gold" than the other although the photos may not show this very well. Don't think this would be down to natural fading or temperature effects.
Different case size for same value, 220uf 100v standard? Anybody else found this? Seems a little suspect to me!
All end caps the same, silver "K", except high voltage VK which has plain black plastic base.
Leads caps either orange/brown Tufnol style or grey/black, grooved rubber. The Tufnol caps vary in colour. Looking at photos of BG's on Google, I'm seeing mainly grooved grey/black style caps so are the Tufnol ones genuine?
Most values are within 3-10% tolerance, a couple around 11%.
Weights of caps don't seem to vary more than 1-3% between matching values.
Not sure if this info is of use to anyone but if people can have a look at their own stock, which they know to be genuine, then maybe it will help in a small way to identifying any possible fakes out there!
Some more photos below showing different print layouts. This info from a batch of around 35 new/used capacitors of various values. These were purchased more than ten years ago at a time when I wouldn't have thought it financially viable to fake them.
Generally "Rubycon" appears to be the same length as "Black Gate" but not always the case. See the 330uf 100v NP's and the 150uf 350v VK.
There appear to be two different fonts, one looking bolder than the other. Subtle, but there all the same. Difference in colouring as well, one brighter and "more gold" than the other although the photos may not show this very well. Don't think this would be down to natural fading or temperature effects.
Different case size for same value, 220uf 100v standard? Anybody else found this? Seems a little suspect to me!
All end caps the same, silver "K", except high voltage VK which has plain black plastic base.
Leads caps either orange/brown Tufnol style or grey/black, grooved rubber. The Tufnol caps vary in colour. Looking at photos of BG's on Google, I'm seeing mainly grooved grey/black style caps so are the Tufnol ones genuine?
Most values are within 3-10% tolerance, a couple around 11%.
Weights of caps don't seem to vary more than 1-3% between matching values.
Not sure if this info is of use to anyone but if people can have a look at their own stock, which they know to be genuine, then maybe it will help in a small way to identifying any possible fakes out there!
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