Ideas for Avant Garde Trio Inspired Speaker
Afternoon,
I posted a little bit about this in my intro thread [about a year late] from the other day.
Purpose
The purpose of this thread is to try and decide what drivers to use to create a three way front loaded horn, that is similar or as close as possible to the Avant Garde Trios.
I would like to keep cost below AU$2000, purely for drivers, it will be spread out over a long period of time no doubt, as this will not be a quick and easy project by any means.
What I know so far
So far what I know is that they use a very rigid 8 inch cone midrange for 100-600hz, outer diameter of the horn is 950mm, 650mm long.
a 2 inch compression driver for 600hz-4khz, 570mm diameter, 430mm long
and a 1 inch compression driver for 4khz+ in a horn that has a diameter of 180mm and has a length of 85mm.
All of their crossovers are very basic, as they choose drivers with natural rolloff, at the crossover frequencies, and then the horns and compression chambers are also made to filter at those frequencies aswell.
All of the horns are designed as spherical horns [I am guessing that they have a constant radius?] and have 180 degree dispersion.
Other info
I will be making all of the horns myself from fibreglass moulds. I currently have about 70sqm of 450gsm fibreglass matting and 40kg of resin as well. I also have a large number of MDF cut outs from various projects, that will start the basis of my moulds.
I also already own a large number of drivers, I dont think any of them will be useful however, they include a large number of soft dome 1 inch tweeters, various 3 and 4 inch midranges, a number of 6-7 inch midranges, some 8s, 10s, etc. However I dont believe specs on any of these drivers suit front horn design and most of them are set aside for other projects.
I will be running this all active, using a minidsp and 4 2 x 135wrms kit amps
What I need to work out
What I need help deciding, and working out is what drivers to use, and exactly how I am going to design the horns, my horn theory is okay, however I am not that good at designing horns, and hornresp confuses me greatly still.
Any ideas, with clear reasoning as to what I should do and why will be appreciated.
If I can get together something that looks like it will work, I shall no doubt turn this into a kind of build log for it all as well.
Thanks,
Ryan
Afternoon,
I posted a little bit about this in my intro thread [about a year late] from the other day.
Purpose
The purpose of this thread is to try and decide what drivers to use to create a three way front loaded horn, that is similar or as close as possible to the Avant Garde Trios.
I would like to keep cost below AU$2000, purely for drivers, it will be spread out over a long period of time no doubt, as this will not be a quick and easy project by any means.
What I know so far
So far what I know is that they use a very rigid 8 inch cone midrange for 100-600hz, outer diameter of the horn is 950mm, 650mm long.
a 2 inch compression driver for 600hz-4khz, 570mm diameter, 430mm long
and a 1 inch compression driver for 4khz+ in a horn that has a diameter of 180mm and has a length of 85mm.
All of their crossovers are very basic, as they choose drivers with natural rolloff, at the crossover frequencies, and then the horns and compression chambers are also made to filter at those frequencies aswell.
All of the horns are designed as spherical horns [I am guessing that they have a constant radius?] and have 180 degree dispersion.
Other info
I will be making all of the horns myself from fibreglass moulds. I currently have about 70sqm of 450gsm fibreglass matting and 40kg of resin as well. I also have a large number of MDF cut outs from various projects, that will start the basis of my moulds.
I also already own a large number of drivers, I dont think any of them will be useful however, they include a large number of soft dome 1 inch tweeters, various 3 and 4 inch midranges, a number of 6-7 inch midranges, some 8s, 10s, etc. However I dont believe specs on any of these drivers suit front horn design and most of them are set aside for other projects.
I will be running this all active, using a minidsp and 4 2 x 135wrms kit amps
What I need to work out
What I need help deciding, and working out is what drivers to use, and exactly how I am going to design the horns, my horn theory is okay, however I am not that good at designing horns, and hornresp confuses me greatly still.
Any ideas, with clear reasoning as to what I should do and why will be appreciated.
If I can get together something that looks like it will work, I shall no doubt turn this into a kind of build log for it all as well.
Thanks,
Ryan
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there are several 3 or 4 way front loaded horn builds on the go on here and stereo.net.
Read up on B&C 8 inch or Fane 8m, B&C compression drivers, Radian compression drivers and look into vintage Yamaha and JBL drivers.
I researche for 12 months before purchasing anything and settling on a design based on what was available.
Read up on B&C 8 inch or Fane 8m, B&C compression drivers, Radian compression drivers and look into vintage Yamaha and JBL drivers.
I researche for 12 months before purchasing anything and settling on a design based on what was available.
Fane Studio 8ms are no longer available, what they have to replace it, doesnt look like it will be all that good.
The several threads on SNA use either rather expensive , not easy to come by esoteric speakers [Lansche plasma tweeter and mid], or drivers that are no longer available. [Fane Studio 8m]
I would prefer to use drivers that are currently available, rather then Vintage drivers, with no warrranty, etc
The several threads on SNA use either rather expensive , not easy to come by esoteric speakers [Lansche plasma tweeter and mid], or drivers that are no longer available. [Fane Studio 8m]
I would prefer to use drivers that are currently available, rather then Vintage drivers, with no warrranty, etc
looking at the budget I recommend Faital pro or Selenium compression drivers
what is the final efficiency you're looking for?
what is the final efficiency you're looking for?
Im not really fussed about efficiency, I mainly just want to experiment with front loaded horns using drivers of fairly reasonable quality. I prefer lower distortion, etc, over efficiency.
Horn produce low distortion and have high efficiency basically (not always)
I'm anxious to see how will you build horns? round horns or rectangle horns?
I'll suggest you to use Tractrix horn calculator which will give you good perspective of some direction in CAD... I attached it you can take a look. it calculate both round and rectangle horns according to Driver TS or cutoff frequency 🙂
you can reach to 104 up to 110db of efficiency. it depend weather your low frequency driver will be bi-amp and active you not, because woofers are not as efficient as compression units and horn tweeter
Selenium D405 is a good and economical 2" midrange driver. Selenium D220Ti is also a good HF CD will work fine as a tweeter
you may also want to use horn bass-bin to increase efficiency with lower distortion. there are some good horn bass bins available. one of the best would be Khorn. La scala is another option. I don't kow much about front-loaded basshorns but La Scala and Klipschorn bassbins was used in some rond horn projects (I think I saw some in Bd-Design website)
Ideally I would like to build round horns from moulds using fibreglass.
I have access to a lathe, from which I should be able to make the moulds from, then hopefully build the horns from that.
Just had a quick look at the Tractrix horn calculator, that looks like that will be much easier to calculate exactly how wide the horns should be for a given length, thanks for that.
Efficiency anywhere above 100db would be more then enough for me, as I said, it is just something to play around with and see how I go.
As for bass bins for the low end, I was planning on building some, I have 12 10 inch subs sitting around doing nothing, but I dont think they will suit horn loading that well, so if I decide to go that path, Dayton Audio do some affordable 15 inch PA style subs that look like they could work really well.
I also have access to a metal roller, so I could get a look/finish similar in style to the Avant Garde Basshorns if I like.
When I have time, I will have a look at those drivers to see how they look on paper, thanks for your tips/suggestions.
Ryan
I have access to a lathe, from which I should be able to make the moulds from, then hopefully build the horns from that.
Just had a quick look at the Tractrix horn calculator, that looks like that will be much easier to calculate exactly how wide the horns should be for a given length, thanks for that.
Efficiency anywhere above 100db would be more then enough for me, as I said, it is just something to play around with and see how I go.
As for bass bins for the low end, I was planning on building some, I have 12 10 inch subs sitting around doing nothing, but I dont think they will suit horn loading that well, so if I decide to go that path, Dayton Audio do some affordable 15 inch PA style subs that look like they could work really well.
I also have access to a metal roller, so I could get a look/finish similar in style to the Avant Garde Basshorns if I like.
When I have time, I will have a look at those drivers to see how they look on paper, thanks for your tips/suggestions.
Ryan
Before you embark on this project have you heard the Avant Garde Trio or the Duo and are sure this is the sound you are looking for before you spend a lot of time and effort, not to mention money replicating it? I will say they look cool, beyond that well...
Just curious.. 😀
Just curious.. 😀
Hi Kevin,
I have not heard it, seen pictures of it, analysed the design of it, read reviews on it, but other then that, nothing.
I have a large number of drivers, all for different things, basically so I can try and create, or replicate designs of some fairly good speakers, covering full range systems, Designs using Transmission Lines, Line Arrays, wave guides, horns, basically any 'type' I can recreate myself, to get a feel for the design of them, to hear, measure, observe the different characteristics of them and just to have fun and experiment. Visually this one caught my attention, and hopefully sonically I can create something that I also enjoy 🙂
Ryan
I have not heard it, seen pictures of it, analysed the design of it, read reviews on it, but other then that, nothing.
I have a large number of drivers, all for different things, basically so I can try and create, or replicate designs of some fairly good speakers, covering full range systems, Designs using Transmission Lines, Line Arrays, wave guides, horns, basically any 'type' I can recreate myself, to get a feel for the design of them, to hear, measure, observe the different characteristics of them and just to have fun and experiment. Visually this one caught my attention, and hopefully sonically I can create something that I also enjoy 🙂
Ryan
I heard Avantgarde Uno last year in Budapest and WoW! 😱 best sound ever heard... I haven't heard few sounds... Wilson and Marten with best rugs ever build from Vitus and Conrad to AN 🙂 but Avantgarde Uno just sounded much better than all other speakers I had heard till that day... with just a 10,000 USD SE 300B tube amp 😱 I'm looking where can I hear a Oris Swing to see if it beats Avantgarde 😀
I would go for Oris Orphean clone with BMS 4592ND and custom filters and cheaper bass units 🙄 I think it will meet your budget
BMS 4592 ND: ~1000USD
pair of hi-eff 15" woofer: ~ 300USD
Bass bin: 300USD
DIY amp for bass bin: 200USD
filters: 200USD
sum: 2000USD 😀 Uh I forgot about horns!! build them yourself
Hello, Ryzaa!
I did a listening room for Avantgarde Trio few months ago. There are few things to point out:
- long distance to speakers is beneficial, because they have relatively narrow dispersion
- because of the asymmetry of the polar pattern you have to carefully pick the position for them
- again, long distance because the summation occurs best in far(er) field and listening to horns isn't very good up close
- for subbas the best thing are concrete walls (if you are lucky) because they are natural extension of horn mouth when placed in a corner
- go active for the subbas and delay mains accordingly
- they are not simple as they look, there is good engeneering behind it
I hope this helps. Good luck!
I did a listening room for Avantgarde Trio few months ago. There are few things to point out:
- long distance to speakers is beneficial, because they have relatively narrow dispersion
- because of the asymmetry of the polar pattern you have to carefully pick the position for them
- again, long distance because the summation occurs best in far(er) field and listening to horns isn't very good up close
- for subbas the best thing are concrete walls (if you are lucky) because they are natural extension of horn mouth when placed in a corner
- go active for the subbas and delay mains accordingly
- they are not simple as they look, there is good engeneering behind it
I hope this helps. Good luck!
Indeed, for normal sized living rooms a clone of the Uno may be well sufficient !
BTW something I forgot to mention is how pleasantly dynamic they sound even at low volumes.
BTW something I forgot to mention is how pleasantly dynamic they sound even at low volumes.
I am more then willing to make the horns myself, infact I insist on it. There is a guy in Australia who makes the Tractrix horns, just the mid horns will cost me $2000, plus you cant actually get a courier company here to ship them anywhere [he is in another state to me] So that is out of the question.
The Oris Orphean just doesnt excite me in the same way that the Avant Garde Trio does unfortunately.
Sub bass is not included in the budget, my approximate budget is purely for drivers for the 3 way covering upwards from 100hz.
I can stretch it, but it will mean that it will take even longer to save up and buy the drivers, this doesnt bother me, as it will take me a long time just to create the moulds, and then fibreglass the horns as it is.
Currently they will either sit in my parents theatre, which is actually quite a bit larger then what Avant Garde recommend for them, or the workshop.
After that, I will be back at uni most likely when these will be nearing completion, so I will be moving to a house in the city, as where I currently reside [my parents again :S] is almost 2 hours away from my Uni.
Thanks for all suggestions and thoughts, any ideas on calculating horn lengths/volumes/etc, tips/ideas for making the moulds and then the horns themselves and any more driver suggestions will be much appreciated.
Ryan.
The Oris Orphean just doesnt excite me in the same way that the Avant Garde Trio does unfortunately.
Sub bass is not included in the budget, my approximate budget is purely for drivers for the 3 way covering upwards from 100hz.
I can stretch it, but it will mean that it will take even longer to save up and buy the drivers, this doesnt bother me, as it will take me a long time just to create the moulds, and then fibreglass the horns as it is.
Currently they will either sit in my parents theatre, which is actually quite a bit larger then what Avant Garde recommend for them, or the workshop.
After that, I will be back at uni most likely when these will be nearing completion, so I will be moving to a house in the city, as where I currently reside [my parents again :S] is almost 2 hours away from my Uni.
Thanks for all suggestions and thoughts, any ideas on calculating horn lengths/volumes/etc, tips/ideas for making the moulds and then the horns themselves and any more driver suggestions will be much appreciated.
Ryan.
If you want to go for a 3-way I suggest use Selenium D405 as mid-range and Selenium D220Ti as tweeters ... If you'd like to go for 2-way BMS 4592 ND or B&C DCM50 will do the job perfectly. Atlas PD-5VH is a 1" compression driver which sound very good to my ear with275USD/pr tough BMS and B&C will sound better with lower distortion and won but with just a nose 😉 Atlas PD-5VH is one of the best 1 incher compression units I ever heard so far
Selenium D405 is a huge monster weights 19pound each but it worths every penny and meets your budget
about building horn, You'll have a tough time 😀 Tractrix calculator will be just enough to design one but building the horn is a really hell-hole
good luck with you attemptAs long as I can make a mould using the calculator, making the horn shouldnt be that bad.. Im just worried about the glass sticking to the mould, or it not being smooth.., will probably have to practice a bit first to make sure..
Had a look at those drivers, on paper the two Selenium ones look very good, 1" ones for $50 each or so and the 2" midrange drivers for about $200 each. That leaves plenty of money leftover for midbass units, who knows, I may be able to build horn loaded sub bass for my budget aswell?
I had best start working out how I am going to build the horns, as so far, driver selection is looking good 🙂
Had a look at those drivers, on paper the two Selenium ones look very good, 1" ones for $50 each or so and the 2" midrange drivers for about $200 each. That leaves plenty of money leftover for midbass units, who knows, I may be able to build horn loaded sub bass for my budget aswell?
I had best start working out how I am going to build the horns, as so far, driver selection is looking good 🙂
What is your thinking and reasons behind your decision to clone a AV Trio ? What are your goals ?
I have heard the duo omegas on a couple of occasions and they sound stunning, I think the best I've probably ever heard....
Fran
Fran
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