Unfortunately no horn will work from 300hz or so up to 20,000 hz!!! breaking nature's rules!
the best combination would be 3 or +3 ways horns 🙄
I also suspicious about bd-design's Customer's audibility 😉 but I like Orphean's bass bin... just bass bin 😛
In the case of the Tron, the coaxial horn compresison driver kicks in at 500 hz, and filters to the high frequency coax driver at 6500 hz. This seems to make sense to me. And it definitely needs less space than 2 horns.
Problem comes about with regards to directivity: The large horns definitely have "problems" at high frequencies- they beam quite severely after a certain point, and begin having that "laser through the eyes" top end so many horn systems are known for. I'm getting good sound with the TAD more than likely due to the top end tailing off in the range where the directivity problem becomes an issue (for the most part). The larger and deeper the horn, the worse the problem, hence- multiple horns in the systems that can afford them.
And having heard so many full rangers loaded into horns, including the Oris horns, on 6 separate systems… No thanks. They are better sounding in a front loaded horn, but they are no way comparable to a good compression driver. They were incapable of the one test I consider absolutely crucial: They weren't able to play my most horribly engineered recordings. They absolutely fall apart when you play Rickie Lee Jones on them. I was reaching for the remote after the first phrase… Small scale stuff sounds good, but complex, compressed modern music- not so much.
And I'm sick of not being able to play imperfect music because a system "demands" better recording quality. I'm here for the music. If I can't enjoy a performance that has some engineering problems, the system isn't doing its job. I've had enough of matter of fact systems. I don't listen to chamber music all day at 60dB.
And I'm sick of not being able to play imperfect music because a system "demands" better recording quality. I'm here for the music. If I can't enjoy a performance that has some engineering problems, the system isn't doing its job. I've had enough of matter of fact systems. I don't listen to chamber music all day at 60dB.
Hi Ryan
Your goals are similar to mine. My budget is $2,000 for all drivers, Selenium D405, Selenium tweeters and B&C Pe32 12-inch mid-bass woofers. All brand new.
My thread on SNA here.
New Three-Way Horn Project - Speakers & Subwoofers - StereoNET Australia - Page 3
Regards
Andrew.
Sydney
Your goals are similar to mine. My budget is $2,000 for all drivers, Selenium D405, Selenium tweeters and B&C Pe32 12-inch mid-bass woofers. All brand new.
My thread on SNA here.
New Three-Way Horn Project - Speakers & Subwoofers - StereoNET Australia - Page 3
Regards
Andrew.
Sydney
Unfortunately no horn will work from 300hz or so up to 20,000 hz!!! breaking nature's rules!
the best combination would be 3 or +3 ways horns 🙄
I also suspicious about bd-design's Customer's audibility 😉 but I like Orphean's bass bin... just bass bin 😛
Not true. You can get a Synergy Horn (ala Danley) to cover that range quite well, and be constant directivity and phase coherent to boot. But unless you DIY, you'd have to live with PA type cosmetics.
Synergy brings PA speakers to mind 😀
AFAIK higher frequencies have very smaller wavelength in comparison with lower ones, keeping this in mind in a big horn using from for example 300Hz and up, lower frequencies will have no problem (due to their nature of longer wavelength) but as we go up, higher frequencies will give heavy causalities in horn erosion and can't get along with the big side walls of the horn 😉
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The problems with horns do gedlee fix by using a shorter horn called a waveguide and a special foam plug. Check gedlee.com
I meet Bert Doppenberg two times in Denmark and heard his Oris BD150 and he know what he do and he do it so very well. He his one to trust regarding horn speakers.
I yet have to hear Berts modified compression drivers and matching horns but they should be the real deal.
The unmodified BMS 4592Nd is not recommended by a guy living close to me. He tried lots of drivers in his hornsystem and by now he use a Beyma TPL-150H in a home made horn and he don't miss the compression drivers.
As music is more important to me than hifi qualities I built the DTQWT MKII by Troels Gravesen and never looked back.
Rickie Lee Jones sounds superb and so do Joan Baez which most often sounds thin and makes ears bleed on most systems.
So many ways to Rome... Build'em all! ;-)
I meet Bert Doppenberg two times in Denmark and heard his Oris BD150 and he know what he do and he do it so very well. He his one to trust regarding horn speakers.
I yet have to hear Berts modified compression drivers and matching horns but they should be the real deal.
The unmodified BMS 4592Nd is not recommended by a guy living close to me. He tried lots of drivers in his hornsystem and by now he use a Beyma TPL-150H in a home made horn and he don't miss the compression drivers.
As music is more important to me than hifi qualities I built the DTQWT MKII by Troels Gravesen and never looked back.
Rickie Lee Jones sounds superb and so do Joan Baez which most often sounds thin and makes ears bleed on most systems.
So many ways to Rome... Build'em all! ;-)
Been away for a couple days, there was quite a lot of reading here, thanks for everyons contributions.
David, thanks for posting those, I will make an attempt at modelling and see how they go using a few drivers, need to actually find some time to sit down and do such things.
Brett, any ideas on what models you recommend looking at in the 2 inch compression driver region from the brands you mentioned?
I had a look at some of the high frequency drivers listed, some of them have a falling response towards the top end., will this be an issue? Or will I be able to help bring up the top end with the horn somehow?
Any ideas on specs to look at, or papers to read so I can understand it a bit better? What drivers will suit, what FR to look at, and then anything on how to go about modelling them would be appreciated. All of my previous horn delvings have been Quarter Wave designs.
Andrew, I did have a look at your thread on SNA a while back, it didnt really have much info I could use for what I was looking at doing, Im not sure what passbands and the like you are looking for.
And Nelson, I know there are many ways to go about it all, I am attempting to build as much of everything as I can, just building a base for it all, and then delving into the finer details as I go. As I mentioned in my intro thread, I am trying to get my head around most ideas and building/experimenting with them all, so I can learn as I go, and find what works for me and doesnt.
Im receiving a lot of ideas on what drivers to look at, especially for the midrange and high frequency ranges, any ideas for non-vintage midbass drivers?
Thanks,
Ryan
David, thanks for posting those, I will make an attempt at modelling and see how they go using a few drivers, need to actually find some time to sit down and do such things.
Brett, any ideas on what models you recommend looking at in the 2 inch compression driver region from the brands you mentioned?
I had a look at some of the high frequency drivers listed, some of them have a falling response towards the top end., will this be an issue? Or will I be able to help bring up the top end with the horn somehow?
Any ideas on specs to look at, or papers to read so I can understand it a bit better? What drivers will suit, what FR to look at, and then anything on how to go about modelling them would be appreciated. All of my previous horn delvings have been Quarter Wave designs.
Andrew, I did have a look at your thread on SNA a while back, it didnt really have much info I could use for what I was looking at doing, Im not sure what passbands and the like you are looking for.
And Nelson, I know there are many ways to go about it all, I am attempting to build as much of everything as I can, just building a base for it all, and then delving into the finer details as I go. As I mentioned in my intro thread, I am trying to get my head around most ideas and building/experimenting with them all, so I can learn as I go, and find what works for me and doesnt.
Im receiving a lot of ideas on what drivers to look at, especially for the midrange and high frequency ranges, any ideas for non-vintage midbass drivers?
Thanks,
Ryan
Ryan
I'm confident my system will walk all over the Trio's...why do I say this?
1. The mid bass horn is more powerful, utilising a fantasic B&C 12-inch driver, ideally geared for front loaded horns.
2. The mid horn (500 to 5,000Hz) will be wonderfully matched with the massive Selenium D405 compression driver. You've got to see this thing to believe it.
3. I am using horns for the bass modules, which are far superior to 'home theatre' style sub woofers which Avantgarde use. (I have a mate who is using the $25,000 Duo's...sure the mids and highs sound nice...but the bass is woeful. Like listing to a home theatre bass coming from one part of the room, with dynamic horns doing their stuff in another part of the room.
So, you could spend $40,000 or so on AG...or you can build a world-beater 4-way FULL HORN system at a fraction of the cost.
If you didn't want to go to the trouble of a mid-bass horn like mine, you could spend a little $$ and buy the large (110cm, 50Kg, $3,999 Euro) and get the Stereolabs 100Hz bass horn, which you can use with a driver up to 10 inches....love it.
SL100 - 10.0" cf100Hz Spherical Wave Tractrix Horn - STEREO LAB
Did you get a chance to look at some of the Stereolabs projects....?
Customer Projects - STEREO LAB
My build project is also fully explained with pics etc on the DIY Audio web site - here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/213849-pics-new-4-way-horn-rig-underway-8.html#post3078567
Andrew
I'm confident my system will walk all over the Trio's...why do I say this?
1. The mid bass horn is more powerful, utilising a fantasic B&C 12-inch driver, ideally geared for front loaded horns.
2. The mid horn (500 to 5,000Hz) will be wonderfully matched with the massive Selenium D405 compression driver. You've got to see this thing to believe it.
3. I am using horns for the bass modules, which are far superior to 'home theatre' style sub woofers which Avantgarde use. (I have a mate who is using the $25,000 Duo's...sure the mids and highs sound nice...but the bass is woeful. Like listing to a home theatre bass coming from one part of the room, with dynamic horns doing their stuff in another part of the room.
So, you could spend $40,000 or so on AG...or you can build a world-beater 4-way FULL HORN system at a fraction of the cost.
If you didn't want to go to the trouble of a mid-bass horn like mine, you could spend a little $$ and buy the large (110cm, 50Kg, $3,999 Euro) and get the Stereolabs 100Hz bass horn, which you can use with a driver up to 10 inches....love it.
SL100 - 10.0" cf100Hz Spherical Wave Tractrix Horn - STEREO LAB
Did you get a chance to look at some of the Stereolabs projects....?
Customer Projects - STEREO LAB
My build project is also fully explained with pics etc on the DIY Audio web site - here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/213849-pics-new-4-way-horn-rig-underway-8.html#post3078567
Andrew
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I never heard the Trios,but liked the looks of them.When I heard the Edgarhorn Titan system,I decided to build a more or less clone,but wanted it to look more like the Trios.
I built a pair of tapped horns for the bass,using the Eminence Lab 12 gen 2 drivers,the midbass horn is an exponential 110 hz round horn,29" dia,glued up of layers of MDF,and turned on the lathe,using a JBL 2205a 15" driver,crossed over at 500 hz to a 345 hz tractrix horn,also MDF,driven by a JBL 2441 2" compression driver.I started with the Fostex F90 bullet tweeter,moved up to the 925a,and a few years later,the fostex T500mk2.
It's got some vintage drivers that may be hard to find,but it works for me.
I only have access to this crappy pic at the moment,but it gives the idea.
http://imageshack.us/a/img250/1751/dbk1pl5.jpg
Good luck on your project,a front loaded horn system is the way to go.IMO...
I built a pair of tapped horns for the bass,using the Eminence Lab 12 gen 2 drivers,the midbass horn is an exponential 110 hz round horn,29" dia,glued up of layers of MDF,and turned on the lathe,using a JBL 2205a 15" driver,crossed over at 500 hz to a 345 hz tractrix horn,also MDF,driven by a JBL 2441 2" compression driver.I started with the Fostex F90 bullet tweeter,moved up to the 925a,and a few years later,the fostex T500mk2.
It's got some vintage drivers that may be hard to find,but it works for me.
I only have access to this crappy pic at the moment,but it gives the idea.
http://imageshack.us/a/img250/1751/dbk1pl5.jpg
Good luck on your project,a front loaded horn system is the way to go.IMO...
Thanks Don...excellent project.
Any more pics...?
Do you mean a mid bass horn like this from Romy's site?
GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Le Horn - really Upper bass 115Hz Horns
A mate here is building a 3-way horn, using Azura fibre glass horns. Fantastic in red.
DIY horn speakers - DIY Audio & Electronics - StereoNET Australia - Page 5
Boy, for under $2,000 you get all the horns...plsu $2,000 for all the drivers...throw in a sub and wow.
Any more pics...?
Do you mean a mid bass horn like this from Romy's site?
GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Le Horn - really Upper bass 115Hz Horns
A mate here is building a 3-way horn, using Azura fibre glass horns. Fantastic in red.
DIY horn speakers - DIY Audio & Electronics - StereoNET Australia - Page 5
Boy, for under $2,000 you get all the horns...plsu $2,000 for all the drivers...throw in a sub and wow.
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Sorry,no more pics at the moment,my computer is at a friend's to be repaired,I'm using my wife's laptop now.
I haven't been to Romy's site in a while,seems like there is a lot of new posts,will have to read them.
He has a pic of my horns in his "problems with mid-bass horns",with the caption"Do not repeat the mistakes of others".(posted 05 20 06)
I consider being flamed by romy as a compliment,and I'm in good company...LOL!
His main objection seemed to be that the throat is too big,and I agree with him.The mid-bass horn is a round version of the Altec 828 cabinet(A7).
After I finish up a few other projects,I am going to see about improving them
I haven't been to Romy's site in a while,seems like there is a lot of new posts,will have to read them.
He has a pic of my horns in his "problems with mid-bass horns",with the caption"Do not repeat the mistakes of others".(posted 05 20 06)
I consider being flamed by romy as a compliment,and I'm in good company...LOL!
His main objection seemed to be that the throat is too big,and I agree with him.The mid-bass horn is a round version of the Altec 828 cabinet(A7).
After I finish up a few other projects,I am going to see about improving them
Andrew,
have you any experience with more expensive CDs like TAD, Radian, BMS, B&C to give use an impression about Selenium? 🙂 How do they sound in micro dynamics? how is the tonal accuracy?
Apart from various other horns I've heard, eg Trios, Duos, DIYers...I haven't heard TAD.
I would argue Selenium is as good as anything Radian, BMS have to offer.
Bob Crites has had great success with these drivers for Klipsch upgrades.
Micro dynamics are very good indeed. I'm still running my drivers in...so I will see how it all sounds in a few days...but I've built and owned dozens of speakers...Altec, Tannoy, Lowther etc...these are the best easily.
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Andrew you know what, I know about Bob's achievements on Klipsch Heritage upgrade. I have some Klipsch speakers around and even Bob's Cornscala but you know what you are up to is a speaker of a different league 🙄 for now how do you compare your 4-way horn against Cornscala? what about comparing the sound with Trio and Duo you've heard? 🙄
I'm just curious and you're making me to start a same project
Well, of course I also built the Cornscalla...but used the two-way Faital Pro 1.4 inch driver with the Faital Pro elliptical horn. Driver was eminence modded by Bob. I went for this project because Bob himself said he thought the two-way was equal to or better than his more conventional 3 way designs.
Comparing my new horns with Cornscalla vs Trios, I would say the horns present a larger soundstage. The midrange attack and detail is similar to Cornscalla...but the overall presentation is bigger/better.
I'm using one PP 2A3 amp (dual 2A3's/side) for about 10 watts RMS...so I might be under powered for the 12-inch mid bass horns. As such, I think I need a separate SS amp (e.g. Crown) to push the B&C 12-inch drivers along. Still, the overall bass is very good and extremely well integrated into the mid range horn.
Earle Weston (Weston Acoustics) who builds lovely amps here in Oz, has said he'd be happy to take back my new PP amp, and replace it with three separate SET amps...all integrated but with separate volume controls...not sure if I'll go down that path...but a good option none the less.
I think when the sub bass gets built...the overall quality will get rounded out.
Have you contact John Inlow...?
Cheers
Uh very good. I think I just found the way I should build horns 😀 with this method I'll be able to build horns from 4" up to 30" of diameter 🙄 I have to start a new thread to get advice about compression units and network and ... 😱
Happy to help with ideas etc...as I've put a lot of time into getting to where I am. Kind regards. Andrew.
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