Hi,
A lathe than can handle something 0.7m long and 1m diameter ?
You really need to think the fabrication process through, what do you
intend to make the moulds for the fibreglass out of and exactly how.
rgds, sreten.
A lathe than can handle something 0.7m long and 1m diameter ?
You really need to think the fabrication process through, what do you
intend to make the moulds for the fibreglass out of and exactly how.
rgds, sreten.
My goal is to create a multiway front loaded horn design, that sounds good, is dynamic and aesthetically pleasing. Reviews of the Trio make it seem as if it fits the first 2, and the look of it is something that I enjoy.
As for a lathe that handles such things, I have access to and use of one that does just that. It can be adjusted to just above 0.6m high [1.2m diameter] and you can remove the end of it, allowing for theoretical infinite length. Obviously it wouldnt be able to, as too much weight over too long a distance would be bad.
I intend on building it similar to this, probably almost exactly following these guidelines, I may not get it perfect first up, but I will hopefully be able to create fairly reasonable horns with some practice. The material is fairly lightweight, easy to come by, fairly inexpensive, and quite usable. I have plenty of fibreglassing experience, just nothing of this magnitude and precision as of yet.
This is however, is all that I have considered with this as of yet, if anyone has any ideas that may be better/easier, then I am all ears.
Thanks,
Ryan.
As for a lathe that handles such things, I have access to and use of one that does just that. It can be adjusted to just above 0.6m high [1.2m diameter] and you can remove the end of it, allowing for theoretical infinite length. Obviously it wouldnt be able to, as too much weight over too long a distance would be bad.
I intend on building it similar to this, probably almost exactly following these guidelines, I may not get it perfect first up, but I will hopefully be able to create fairly reasonable horns with some practice. The material is fairly lightweight, easy to come by, fairly inexpensive, and quite usable. I have plenty of fibreglassing experience, just nothing of this magnitude and precision as of yet.
This is however, is all that I have considered with this as of yet, if anyone has any ideas that may be better/easier, then I am all ears.
Thanks,
Ryan.
Hi,
Well realise a companies flagship is always pushing the limits of the
technology, and the next step down is usually almost as effective
for a lot less technical effort, and is usually the one to best copy.
rgds, sreten.
Well realise a companies flagship is always pushing the limits of the
technology, and the next step down is usually almost as effective
for a lot less technical effort, and is usually the one to best copy.
rgds, sreten.
I've heard the duos and trios quite a few times (at shows, though) and have never been impressed. I'd choose a different system to clone,
for not too much money, you could get the stereo lab horns (400hz and 2khz), cross 24db@ maybe 600-800hz and 4khz. Community m200 (peak around 6.3khz) and vhf100 would work well. Very smooth (low compression ratios). woofers up to you. You can get buy with the smaller horns due to the steeper crossover.
Norman
Norman
I've heard Duos a few times, and Trios twice, and at best they were pretty average.
If you want something really good first time out, use the AGs as a design 'inspiration' and work from there. Don't try to clone them.
I agree with an earlier post that you should research for a year, doing lots of paper designing, finding out what flares are available, what drivers can work with them, availability etc. Same with flares that you can build or have made.
Then start trying to fit it together and work out what the problems of the combinations will be, how to fix or ameliorate them and work out what sorts of compromises you're willing to accept.
My journey started with stock Khorns. As I started to hear what they did wrong and engineer around them, I effectively built a few horn systems before I finished it and made a lot of mistakes on the way; there were no Klipsch components left by the time I finalised the design.
If you want something really good first time out, use the AGs as a design 'inspiration' and work from there. Don't try to clone them.
I agree with an earlier post that you should research for a year, doing lots of paper designing, finding out what flares are available, what drivers can work with them, availability etc. Same with flares that you can build or have made.
Then start trying to fit it together and work out what the problems of the combinations will be, how to fix or ameliorate them and work out what sorts of compromises you're willing to accept.
My journey started with stock Khorns. As I started to hear what they did wrong and engineer around them, I effectively built a few horn systems before I finished it and made a lot of mistakes on the way; there were no Klipsch components left by the time I finalised the design.
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I have spent quite a while looking around and deciding what I want the speakers I am building to look like, I decided on these. I understand this project is not for the faint hearted.
Im not sure why it seems that people think this will just happen overnight, it wont, the creation of this thread, was to see peoples ideas on what drivers I should use, why I should use them, and other such things, this is what I have decided on doing, and I dont see it changing.
Half of the fun of it, is actually building it, its not so much about cost, I could buy Stereo Lab horns, but then I havent made them, if I could cost effectively make my own wood blends, I would, but I cant.. I hope this explains more of why I am going about it like this? I enjoy trying new things, building, fabricating. Perhaps I need to start highlighting key points in my posts, so that people notice them more?
I will not be purchasing anything except drivers, horns will be entirely custom made, all I need is help deciding on drivers, and then modelling horns that will suit them.
As for cloning them, I perhaps used that word too loosely, I wish to create something visually very similar to them, similar polar response, etc to them. Operating at fairly similar crossovers, as I think that the ones they implement are at good, unobtrusive places, 4k is hopefully high enough to not be too hard on the most sensitive bits of ones hearing, and 600hz low enough to be able to try and make it fairly seamless.
It will all be run active, so I can play with slopes, crossovers, etc, I have basic measuring equipment, but am saving up for some that is better suited for testing. It will be long, I will start with drivers, build horns that suit, for the bandwidths that have been outlined, if they dont work, well I will start again. I enjoy the building and construction process, its all a part of the learning, if it doesnt work out right the first time, at least I have learnt along the way, and will be better of it for my next attempt. If it works the first time, then so much the better, even though I probably lose from it, as I wouldnt learn so much the quick and easy way.
Im not sure why it seems that people think this will just happen overnight, it wont, the creation of this thread, was to see peoples ideas on what drivers I should use, why I should use them, and other such things, this is what I have decided on doing, and I dont see it changing.
Half of the fun of it, is actually building it, its not so much about cost, I could buy Stereo Lab horns, but then I havent made them, if I could cost effectively make my own wood blends, I would, but I cant.. I hope this explains more of why I am going about it like this? I enjoy trying new things, building, fabricating. Perhaps I need to start highlighting key points in my posts, so that people notice them more?
I will not be purchasing anything except drivers, horns will be entirely custom made, all I need is help deciding on drivers, and then modelling horns that will suit them.
As for cloning them, I perhaps used that word too loosely, I wish to create something visually very similar to them, similar polar response, etc to them. Operating at fairly similar crossovers, as I think that the ones they implement are at good, unobtrusive places, 4k is hopefully high enough to not be too hard on the most sensitive bits of ones hearing, and 600hz low enough to be able to try and make it fairly seamless.
It will all be run active, so I can play with slopes, crossovers, etc, I have basic measuring equipment, but am saving up for some that is better suited for testing. It will be long, I will start with drivers, build horns that suit, for the bandwidths that have been outlined, if they dont work, well I will start again. I enjoy the building and construction process, its all a part of the learning, if it doesnt work out right the first time, at least I have learnt along the way, and will be better of it for my next attempt. If it works the first time, then so much the better, even though I probably lose from it, as I wouldnt learn so much the quick and easy way.
My starting point was similar. I had the privilege to listen AV Trio at Holger Frommes home, almost twenty years back. It was the most impressive listening session i had in my life. It was a dream for many years, to possess something similar. I knew i would not simply want to buy them, but make something similar myself. At this thread you can see what came out finally :
AV Eikon : finished - Audio Voice Acoustics
It was a journey that took some time, but i can say i am very happy with the result. And even if i still have the impulse to try out new things, i do not see many possibilities anymore. The element that brought the biggest improvement was the Beyma TPL-150. If i would have to start from scratch, i would probably not go for horns anymore at all, but do just a MTM design :
Beyma Tpl-150 - Audio Voice Acoustics
AV Eikon : finished - Audio Voice Acoustics
It was a journey that took some time, but i can say i am very happy with the result. And even if i still have the impulse to try out new things, i do not see many possibilities anymore. The element that brought the biggest improvement was the Beyma TPL-150. If i would have to start from scratch, i would probably not go for horns anymore at all, but do just a MTM design :
Beyma Tpl-150 - Audio Voice Acoustics
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Hi Ryan,
Given the following specifications for the three Avantgarde Trio spherical wave horns:
Low mid range horn:
Mouth diameter = 950mm
Mouth flare tangent angle = 90 degrees
Axial length = 650mm
Mid range horn:
Mouth diameter = 570mm
Mouth flare tangent angle = 90 degrees
Axial length = 430mm
High range horn:
Mouth diameter = 180mm
Mouth flare tangent angle = 90 degrees
Axial length = 85mm
The equivalent Hornresp inputs become:
Low mid range horn:
S1 = 80.49
L12 (Sph) = 65.00
F12 = 152.47
Mid range horn:
S1 = 20.30
L12 (Sph) = 43.00
F12 = 253.35
High range horn:
S1 = 9.07
L12 (Sph) = 8.50
F12 = 804.08
Construction dimensions can be obtained by selecting the File > Export > Horn Data menu command from the schematic diagram window.
Hornresp data files for the three spherical wave horns are attached - the Length and Radius dimensions can be used to construct axisymmetric horns. The length increments are the default values - these can be changed if required.
NOTE - Spherical wave horns as used by Avantgarde Acoustic, are not the same as tractrix horns.
Kind regards,
David
I see. You've decided on what you want it to look like, ie 3 axisymmetric horns and direct radiator bass.
Well the bottom part is easy; 2-4 high efficiency pro drivers per side, sealed and EQ'd will get you flat to 30Hz. You'll need a bigger amp to drive them. JBL 2226 or 2241/2 or equivalents from other brands would be my starting place. If you can get the MB horn down to 100Hz, a tapped horn (single fold) is also a good option.
100Hz and up for the MB horn, hypex profile with something like a JBL 2205, EVM12L/15L etc. Exact driver will need to be modelled in Hornresp as best compromise of Fl, Fh and flare rate. Hypex will load better at the bottom end than Trax for the same size mouth, and that will the defining/limiting parameter I would think.
If you can get that nice to 500Hz, then many 2" format CD's in a 350Hz trax flare a la Edgar will then get you to 6k-7k. JBL, Radian, BMS (my personal first choice). A LeCleac'h would also be a good choice for the flare and as you are happy with physically large, so would a conical or oblate spheroid both with a round over at the mouth.
Above this is easy as any 1" format CD will do fine. I've used the B&C DE250, 18Sound ND1090 and Beyma CP380M and recommend them, but there are many alternatives. Stay away from most Ti frams and Selenium. I'd use the same flare type as the one below it for this.
I'd assemble it on a frame that allows the horn axes to be angled towards your ears, and have the LF sections flanking the LF horn. A pair of TH, one per side per channel (4 total) could also probably be incorporated into the stand.
This is roughly how I'd start, and there are still a myriad of details to be sorted, most notably flare types and rates, and from that the driver for the LF horn. Everyone will chime in with their favourites, but stick with known performers.
Some worthwhile sites:
Autotech - the measured FR and polars of their flares could help you decide on what to choose
Erik / Volvotreter - read all of it. I used his EVM12 based trax and later a slightly smaller version of it.
Well the bottom part is easy; 2-4 high efficiency pro drivers per side, sealed and EQ'd will get you flat to 30Hz. You'll need a bigger amp to drive them. JBL 2226 or 2241/2 or equivalents from other brands would be my starting place. If you can get the MB horn down to 100Hz, a tapped horn (single fold) is also a good option.
100Hz and up for the MB horn, hypex profile with something like a JBL 2205, EVM12L/15L etc. Exact driver will need to be modelled in Hornresp as best compromise of Fl, Fh and flare rate. Hypex will load better at the bottom end than Trax for the same size mouth, and that will the defining/limiting parameter I would think.
If you can get that nice to 500Hz, then many 2" format CD's in a 350Hz trax flare a la Edgar will then get you to 6k-7k. JBL, Radian, BMS (my personal first choice). A LeCleac'h would also be a good choice for the flare and as you are happy with physically large, so would a conical or oblate spheroid both with a round over at the mouth.
Above this is easy as any 1" format CD will do fine. I've used the B&C DE250, 18Sound ND1090 and Beyma CP380M and recommend them, but there are many alternatives. Stay away from most Ti frams and Selenium. I'd use the same flare type as the one below it for this.
I'd assemble it on a frame that allows the horn axes to be angled towards your ears, and have the LF sections flanking the LF horn. A pair of TH, one per side per channel (4 total) could also probably be incorporated into the stand.
This is roughly how I'd start, and there are still a myriad of details to be sorted, most notably flare types and rates, and from that the driver for the LF horn. Everyone will chime in with their favourites, but stick with known performers.
Some worthwhile sites:
Autotech - the measured FR and polars of their flares could help you decide on what to choose
Erik / Volvotreter - read all of it. I used his EVM12 based trax and later a slightly smaller version of it.
If you can find a pair of them for a reasonable cost, I've had astoundingly good results with a pair of old beat up TAD 4002 drivers w/Radian aluminum diaphragms on a pair of the StereoLab spherical tractrix horns. I have listened to the Avangarde systems several times, the last time being at CES where they were showing a number of systems, and I could always hear a fairly obvious coloration from them- They have a very definite sound to them, though the things they did well have always intrigued me. They were the reason I got into horns at all, as a matter of fact.
So far, no horn I have ever listened to has been better sounding than the combination I'm running right now, and I am listening in far from ideal environment. The Avantgarde systems use the Kugelwellen (sp?) profile as opposed to the Tractrix, which makes for a pretty shallow horn. I actually have a horn from their Trio system sitting here on my desk, as a matter of fact- the one they use for their HF driver. I tried it on my B&C DE250… Made me give up the idea of building a horn system for more than a year.
I HIGHLY recommend you get (or make) a pair of horns suitable for a 2 inch CD, get the best CD you can find for them, and system builds from there. That is the best way to achieve success in such a massive project. The best part is: You aren't throwing anything away! You use the same horn in the finished system, and the investment moves forward…
I paid $1500 just for the beat up TAD drivers w/ new aftermarket diaphragms- they handle the most important part of the frequency spectrum- the most often screwed up part. Make sure you invest the proper attention to the midrange, or you will NOT be happy with the result. I got lucky with this combo- I fully intend to make horns myself in the near future- pretty much the EXACT system configuration you are building… But I needed something that worked well to compare my own efforts to– Thus, the StereoLab horns. And I have been elated to say the least. Can't wait to start making my own. Good Luck!
So far, no horn I have ever listened to has been better sounding than the combination I'm running right now, and I am listening in far from ideal environment. The Avantgarde systems use the Kugelwellen (sp?) profile as opposed to the Tractrix, which makes for a pretty shallow horn. I actually have a horn from their Trio system sitting here on my desk, as a matter of fact- the one they use for their HF driver. I tried it on my B&C DE250… Made me give up the idea of building a horn system for more than a year.
I HIGHLY recommend you get (or make) a pair of horns suitable for a 2 inch CD, get the best CD you can find for them, and system builds from there. That is the best way to achieve success in such a massive project. The best part is: You aren't throwing anything away! You use the same horn in the finished system, and the investment moves forward…
I paid $1500 just for the beat up TAD drivers w/ new aftermarket diaphragms- they handle the most important part of the frequency spectrum- the most often screwed up part. Make sure you invest the proper attention to the midrange, or you will NOT be happy with the result. I got lucky with this combo- I fully intend to make horns myself in the near future- pretty much the EXACT system configuration you are building… But I needed something that worked well to compare my own efforts to– Thus, the StereoLab horns. And I have been elated to say the least. Can't wait to start making my own. Good Luck!
have ever heard any of BMS or B&c or Faital Pro drivers to be able to give us a comparing review against TAD 4002? I've heard BMS 4592 and B&C DCM50 are very good on the spectrum but I wanted some subjective impression 🙂 I'm actually in pursuit of the best 2" driver which does the best in micro dynamics and also won't come short in macro
I also want you and others opinion on "whey not use rectangle horns in such projects?" there are much much easier to build (not easy but easier than round horns IMO)
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I've heard the smaller B&C drivers, both in the Zingali offerings, and loaded into a pair of Martinelli horns similar to the systems you have pictured above. They sounded good, and would be a reasonably effective driver to choose for not a lot of money. I've heard some say the Beyma large format 755 Nd drivers are a "poor mans TAD", but I have never heard them, so can't really say whether the assertion is valid.
I am getting great results with my Faital 15 inch drivers, but I've yet to hear any of their compression drivers. I may try one their little HF CDs to extend the TAD top end- but its pretty solid as is- though I doubt it gets much past 15K or so… It still sounds better than any of the commercial offerings I've heard in the past using horns (yeah, I know… pretty much everyone says that about their own speakers- especially when they truly suck)
I will be trying some different drivers as time permits- the same source who got me these has a warehouse full of pro driver goodies- he is keen on me trying some EV CDs he has quite a few of- but I seriously doubt I'm going to find anything remotely affordable that sounds as good as these.
I wish I had a better answer than this, but for the time being, it appears the TADs are simply worth the money… I just wish I had another pair.
I am getting great results with my Faital 15 inch drivers, but I've yet to hear any of their compression drivers. I may try one their little HF CDs to extend the TAD top end- but its pretty solid as is- though I doubt it gets much past 15K or so… It still sounds better than any of the commercial offerings I've heard in the past using horns (yeah, I know… pretty much everyone says that about their own speakers- especially when they truly suck)
I will be trying some different drivers as time permits- the same source who got me these has a warehouse full of pro driver goodies- he is keen on me trying some EV CDs he has quite a few of- but I seriously doubt I'm going to find anything remotely affordable that sounds as good as these.
I wish I had a better answer than this, but for the time being, it appears the TADs are simply worth the money… I just wish I had another pair.
Another interesting approach for the original poster is the use of Beyma's highly regarded air motion transformer tweeters TPL150 and TPL150/H. These should be crossed above 1khz. You can imagine using a high quality compression driver in a big horn from 500 hz onwards, and still having lots of flexibility where you cross to the air motion tweeter (which has its own small horn).
You can't clone the Trio 'cause you can't get the original drivers. So, you're building a horn speaker with a totally different sound than the original.
I was on the same road and spend around a year reading about designing horn speakers and heard a lot horns and drivers too.
No matter what I heard coloration from the horns or nasty things from the drivers.
I came by the best horns to be from http://www.bd-design.nl
I heard the BD150 using a modified AER 8" driver 10 years ago. That one was close to perfect!!
This year I heard the AG Duo Primo G2. Perfect from around 200 Hz and up. The bass was not up to my current speakers.
This year I considered the Trio look-a-like again and concluded that I would use mid- and bass horns and drivers from BD-Design. A proven design that is known to surpass AGs in sound quality.
You're been warned - good luck!
I was on the same road and spend around a year reading about designing horn speakers and heard a lot horns and drivers too.
No matter what I heard coloration from the horns or nasty things from the drivers.
I came by the best horns to be from http://www.bd-design.nl
I heard the BD150 using a modified AER 8" driver 10 years ago. That one was close to perfect!!
This year I heard the AG Duo Primo G2. Perfect from around 200 Hz and up. The bass was not up to my current speakers.
This year I considered the Trio look-a-like again and concluded that I would use mid- and bass horns and drivers from BD-Design. A proven design that is known to surpass AGs in sound quality.
You're been warned - good luck!
Oh, forgot to mention the Radian PB950 2" compression driver. So much better than all the Altec drivers I've heard and also better than the TAD. So smooth and natural sounding. 🙂
I heard the AER-powered horns from BD design as well, remarkably nice indeed.
Another interesting object to investigate is the BMS coaxial compression driver. B&C and now JBL offer this as well.
It is used in this project:
Strassacker: Lautsprecher - Boxen - Selbstbau
Another interesting object to investigate is the BMS coaxial compression driver. B&C and now JBL offer this as well.
It is used in this project:
Strassacker: Lautsprecher - Boxen - Selbstbau
Unfortunately no horn will work from 300hz or so up to 20,000 hz!!! breaking nature's rules!
the best combination would be 3 or +3 ways horns 🙄
I also suspicious about bd-design's Customer's audibility 😉 but I like Orphean's bass bin... just bass bin 😛
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