So Ryan, when you listened to these 2 pairs of EL70s (identical enclosures) did you hear basic qualities and or differences between them not predicted, revealed or explained by measurements, either yours or Mark's?
Whatever is to be said about the polka dots, the EL70 is a silly good little driver
did I say that before?
Whatever is to be said about the polka dots, the EL70 is a silly good little driver
did I say that before?
The best way I can say it, is:
I did hear a difference in the treble range. It was "smoother" and easier to listen too. Akin to reduced CSD. This observation was very slight to me and required going back and forth on the same songs to detect the difference. Even then I continuously doubted if the difference was there and had to switch again and again. In the end I did give the nod to the EnABled pair.
That wouldn't have shown up in a basic FR measurement. What I measured (on axis, 15, and 30 degress FR) is very basic, which is why I make no claim the measurements prove anything.
It makes sense that a cone modification would change the high frequency sound of a full range driver as this is where a lot of junk starts to show up.
I haven't seen Mark's measurements. You mean Mark Fenlon?
No kidding. It is my favourite driver. Cost not a factor I suppose I'd take something else, but for the $, I'd like to see someone try
I did hear a difference in the treble range. It was "smoother" and easier to listen too. Akin to reduced CSD. This observation was very slight to me and required going back and forth on the same songs to detect the difference. Even then I continuously doubted if the difference was there and had to switch again and again. In the end I did give the nod to the EnABled pair.
That wouldn't have shown up in a basic FR measurement. What I measured (on axis, 15, and 30 degress FR) is very basic, which is why I make no claim the measurements prove anything.
It makes sense that a cone modification would change the high frequency sound of a full range driver as this is where a lot of junk starts to show up.
I haven't seen Mark's measurements. You mean Mark Fenlon?
No kidding. It is my favourite driver. Cost not a factor I suppose I'd take something else, but for the $, I'd like to see someone try
Yes. The colour has no effect, it is just an added aesthetic bonus for those that want some variety. Just use food colour instead of water as a thinning agent.
Typically 80-200/pr, depending on how much work is involved, what other mods are done, etc.
dave
No. The way it went was that they favoured a driver, and only later found that it was the modified one.
Single blind.
dave
yes, sorry for the presumption
I'm glad you said that - and with any luck Mark will both try and succeed
This is unfortunately still not understood. It does not mean that we cannot enjoy it.
One does not have to understand a phenomenom to use it. For instance man has been held to the ground for all time, but it took Newton to describe how it behaved and we don't yet have an understanding of the cause.
dave
This is much more obvious with the older Fostex designs. If you have the opportunity, listen to treated vs untreated FE1xxe (or eN) drivers in the same enclosure.
jeff
Thanks Jeff, I was going to mention that some drivers can benefit more than others and perhaps some don't at all.
Best Regards,
Terry
That demo air has been retired, the untreated driver treated and sent off. As well these drivers had pre-treatment mods specifically aimed at reducing the 7kHz peak, which based on anechoic measures was successful. This alone makes the driver better (but as stated earlier, not as much as EnABLing the driver and the 2 mods together are additive)
Note: the 3 source graphs measured under different conditions with different smoothing.
dave
Attachments
I believe that Aristotle (approximately 320 BCE) pointed out that for Mankind to understand the World around him, we needed to know what both gravity and light are. I'm not up to date on this, but I believe that we have a general understanding of how they both work, but not what they are.
Best Regards,
Terry
I meant more, what is it about the sound that changes. Also, I have seen Bud try to explain it scientifically, although it's usually a mess of thoughts that don't add up to much science. It would be better if he took the approach of simply stating: The audible differences are generally described by listeners in A/B tests to be ______. It is presumed that measurements cannot identify these characteristics. Scientific research is still required to understand the physics of this phenomenom, however, it is believed that it has to do with ______.
This is a much better approach to me than pretending to know. Then the science buffs like me, couldn't say he's a wack and his science is incorrect. We could only say there is no scientific basis, which is ok.
Insulting?
Accusations?
Trolling?
Of course if you are making money on this I can understand your defensive attitude... but as far as I can tell you are not?
I am asking for the purveyor of splodges to explain what he is selling no more no less...
WM
Wow and we pay for that upfront - you sure about this?
Are you sure its not placebo after all?
WM
Like many of the other 'not fully understood things' in audio that people make money on?
Enjoying a placebo thats free is one thing - selling it is another?
WM
It makes sense, even scientific sense, that some drivers would benefit less.
Also, I think most multi-way guys don't care about enable because I believe enable affects the treble range which is commonly within the stopband of a woofers use. Therefore there is no gains doing enable to a woofer that'll be crossed at say 2khz.
Originally posted by weltersys:
IIRC, Bud also said the speakers evaluated were in cabinets made of different materials.
Has anyone bothered to do a before and after magnitude and phase response test of the same driver in the same box (measured in the same position) before and after the EnABle treatment to see what measurably occurs ?
Thanks for posting them.
Art
IIRC, Bud also said the speakers evaluated were in cabinets made of different materials.
Has anyone bothered to do a before and after magnitude and phase response test of the same driver in the same box (measured in the same position) before and after the EnABle treatment to see what measurably occurs ?
Yes, looking at the charts I'd agree that driver variation, though minimal, could easily account for the rather small differences in response shown, which seem to be primarily in the upper range, where cone to cone differences would be most likely and detectable by ear.
Thanks for posting them.
Art
Well we are in the fullrange forum....
Scientific sense can only be made on something that has been explained by scientific terms - to date this has not - so IMHO it falls into the same category as all the other audio mumbo jumbo snakeoil products of which we are all mostly familiar.
Guys I dont mind people wanting cones of colour or having splodges etc - what i do mind is folks selling stuff that has no merit....certainly this has aesthetic merit but no audio one.
Of course the purveyours have to defend it to the end becuase it is after all income for them so when I started asking these questions I guess I knew the outcome.
Dave are you a moderator for this open area of forum too?
WM
Doping a cone or many other cone surface treatments or even soak treatments can have similar or even more marked effects - I still dont see whats the connection with splodges?
WM
From what I have read, and the few charts seen, the "splodges" are benign, so easier to sell/implement as an improvement than something that makes a measurable difference that someone could actually identify reliably.
Anyway, they look interesting, and make driver excursion easily visible, so users are less likely to run the driver past it's small Xmax, which in turn probably contributes to a more "Hi Fi" listening experience.
Basically I see it like this - there is no foundation for the claim that splodges improve the sound of a speaker.
Let alone when applied to baffles and speaker enclosures - thats gotta be a laugh.
We all know doping a speaker cone can alter response as can many surface treatments...but to always improve the sound? Nope.
And you can do this without splodges.
Maybe you guys should sell your ENAbl as art deco - cosmetic treatments as it were that may or may not ruin a driver or have no effect or may possibly damp a ragged driver the same way doping would - its a safer bet.
Consumer rights are easily infringed...
I remember C37 lack and a host of other speaker improvement treatments...
WM
Let alone when applied to baffles and speaker enclosures - thats gotta be a laugh.
We all know doping a speaker cone can alter response as can many surface treatments...but to always improve the sound? Nope.
And you can do this without splodges.
Maybe you guys should sell your ENAbl as art deco - cosmetic treatments as it were that may or may not ruin a driver or have no effect or may possibly damp a ragged driver the same way doping would - its a safer bet.
Consumer rights are easily infringed...
I remember C37 lack and a host of other speaker improvement treatments...
WM
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