I've ruined a few drivers as well. Experimenting on rare, and/or expensive drivers is best left to those fearless folks that aren't as cheap as I am.
Best Regards,
TerryO
ra7,
The two sets of drivers were both Fostex FE 127's. The treated pair had both Planet 10 and EnABL treatments. The Planet 10 treatment is a combination of PVA and a material I am not familiar with. The treatment Planet 10 provides does alter the frequency response of an untreated driver. The primary change is a reduction of two frequency peaks. This process does nothing for the perception of space and the greatly enhanced downward dynamics found with EnABL 1.0 and 2.0.
The main comment from the PNWAS group was how much wider and deeper the perceived space from the treated drivers was. The most often heard comment in this vein was "it just opened up.... amazing!". The second most prevalent comment concerned the lack of masking in deeply detailed orchestral works from the treated pair. Some people noted more colorful presentation of instruments. No one noted a change in frequency response, not that humans are particularly sensitive to this without training at the level provided by Dr Toole.
This was not a blind test. The movies on loop back of excited molecules on vibrating surfaces were shown, I discussed what we were trying to achieve and then I asked which loudspeaker pair to start with. The switch box was prominently displayed and after a brief period any member was welcome to use it during playback of quite a few pieces of music.
At one point a very intense young man sat up quite close to the speakers, listening intently to an SACD recording of very simple cello solo work. He became rather animated after a bit of time and made some very positive comments about the resolution of the cello from the treated speakers. Not being a fan I really had no idea what he was on about, but he seemed to.
The untreated drivers, which played initially, sounded like quite good speakers doing their best to reproduce music. The treated speakers really did not struggle at all to reproduce very convincing music and an equally convincing depiction of the space. Note that both sets were stacked upon the same pair of transmission line bass towers, at the same time. These towers utilize two CSS SDX7 EnABL'd woofers per slanted TL tower.
So, both benefited from a very solid bass floor with great texture and considerable power in the bass region and the same position in the room. The 127's were driven by a solid state chip amp and the TL towers from MCM solid state plate amps. The source was an inexpensive Sony SACD / CD player with Red Book being routed through a Sondstream outboard DAC and the SACD direct from the Sony. The signal sources were routed to a 1980's Nikko Beta 1 solid state preamp. Cables were Type 2 Litz housed in woven cotton tubes for both interconnect and speaker cables. The interconnects were 6 feet long and a total of 27 feet of speaker cable was used per driver. The switch box used an Electroswitch, silver contact, make before break switch, with a non inductive resistor in the center rotary position between the two driver sets. This switch box was after the chip amp. The plate amps were driven directly from the Nikko pre amp and level matched to the drivers for the large room the demonstration occurred in.
More than one person was initially very uncomfortable with the first change from untreated to treated drivers. It took perhaps three full driver set changes before everyone was leaning forward in their seats. It was at this point in the presentation that I offered that the memebers should get up and walk around to listen to the drivers from different locations and turned control of the switch box over to the club members.
Terry said that one attendee remained skeptical and there was one talented speaker builder who thought the change could be explained by the use of marine plywood in one set of Fonken Prime cabinets and the Bamboo used in the treated driver cabinets. I did point out that these were only four inch drivers and that an RL filter with a pole at 100 Hz was siting in front of the chip amp, but he seemed unconvinced and was not willing to discuss the sonic differences he heard, that lead him to his conclusions.
Please note that this was just an informal presentation of EnABL, prompted by the clubs request.
Bud
The two sets of drivers were both Fostex FE 127's. The treated pair had both Planet 10 and EnABL treatments. The Planet 10 treatment is a combination of PVA and a material I am not familiar with. The treatment Planet 10 provides does alter the frequency response of an untreated driver. The primary change is a reduction of two frequency peaks. This process does nothing for the perception of space and the greatly enhanced downward dynamics found with EnABL 1.0 and 2.0.
The main comment from the PNWAS group was how much wider and deeper the perceived space from the treated drivers was. The most often heard comment in this vein was "it just opened up.... amazing!". The second most prevalent comment concerned the lack of masking in deeply detailed orchestral works from the treated pair. Some people noted more colorful presentation of instruments. No one noted a change in frequency response, not that humans are particularly sensitive to this without training at the level provided by Dr Toole.
This was not a blind test. The movies on loop back of excited molecules on vibrating surfaces were shown, I discussed what we were trying to achieve and then I asked which loudspeaker pair to start with. The switch box was prominently displayed and after a brief period any member was welcome to use it during playback of quite a few pieces of music.
At one point a very intense young man sat up quite close to the speakers, listening intently to an SACD recording of very simple cello solo work. He became rather animated after a bit of time and made some very positive comments about the resolution of the cello from the treated speakers. Not being a fan I really had no idea what he was on about, but he seemed to.
The untreated drivers, which played initially, sounded like quite good speakers doing their best to reproduce music. The treated speakers really did not struggle at all to reproduce very convincing music and an equally convincing depiction of the space. Note that both sets were stacked upon the same pair of transmission line bass towers, at the same time. These towers utilize two CSS SDX7 EnABL'd woofers per slanted TL tower.
So, both benefited from a very solid bass floor with great texture and considerable power in the bass region and the same position in the room. The 127's were driven by a solid state chip amp and the TL towers from MCM solid state plate amps. The source was an inexpensive Sony SACD / CD player with Red Book being routed through a Sondstream outboard DAC and the SACD direct from the Sony. The signal sources were routed to a 1980's Nikko Beta 1 solid state preamp. Cables were Type 2 Litz housed in woven cotton tubes for both interconnect and speaker cables. The interconnects were 6 feet long and a total of 27 feet of speaker cable was used per driver. The switch box used an Electroswitch, silver contact, make before break switch, with a non inductive resistor in the center rotary position between the two driver sets. This switch box was after the chip amp. The plate amps were driven directly from the Nikko pre amp and level matched to the drivers for the large room the demonstration occurred in.
More than one person was initially very uncomfortable with the first change from untreated to treated drivers. It took perhaps three full driver set changes before everyone was leaning forward in their seats. It was at this point in the presentation that I offered that the memebers should get up and walk around to listen to the drivers from different locations and turned control of the switch box over to the club members.
Terry said that one attendee remained skeptical and there was one talented speaker builder who thought the change could be explained by the use of marine plywood in one set of Fonken Prime cabinets and the Bamboo used in the treated driver cabinets. I did point out that these were only four inch drivers and that an RL filter with a pole at 100 Hz was siting in front of the chip amp, but he seemed unconvinced and was not willing to discuss the sonic differences he heard, that lead him to his conclusions.
Please note that this was just an informal presentation of EnABL, prompted by the clubs request.
Bud
I stand corrected, what Bud has stated is absolutely true, it wasn't a blind test. We've done so many in the past, that I mistakenly believed that this one had been as well.
FWIW: As Bud has mentioned, we used a Gainclone of unknown origin, but for some strange reason it's commonly referred to as "The Destroyer."
😀
Best Regards,
TerryO
FWIW: As Bud has mentioned, we used a Gainclone of unknown origin, but for some strange reason it's commonly referred to as "The Destroyer."
😀
Best Regards,
TerryO
looks nice....kinda retro...
Doping will change the driver - wee dots splodges rectangles? well I doubt it.
But I guess after all the work involved its akin to buying an expensive set of cables - has to sound better right?
Audio is based on scientific principles - humans alas not.
WM
Doping will change the driver - wee dots splodges rectangles? well I doubt it.
But I guess after all the work involved its akin to buying an expensive set of cables - has to sound better right?
Audio is based on scientific principles - humans alas not.
WM
i once bought a pair of extra heavy weights that go on motorcycle handlebars to provide "vibration damping". paid $30 for them on ebay.
installed them and you wouldn't believe how much they actually increased the vibration. listed them the next month and sold them for $50. didn't check to see if the buyer did the same.
but they were stainless steel and looked plain fine on the end of the handlebars!
After the listening tests, I found out that said amplifier was a chip amp! Holly cow it sounded good! I had no idea... At that time it was just thinking about being a "Destroyer"!
science moves on and sometimes discovers new understanding / explanations for observed phenomena (perhaps even contradicting prior "knowledge" or "laws"), and sometimes not - that doesn't negate the observation
if you doubt that "wee dots splodges rectangles", etc can change listeners' perception of a loudspeaker's performance, can I assume that you've not experienced it?
psychologists / psychiatrists or practitioners of any other "pscych" or neuro science might disagree with your last statement
EnABL has spot rings placed generically, in EnABL2 the driver tells you where they should be.
dave
I am sure they do change perception.....we are human.
No but thanks I will not go and place wee rectangles/splodges whatever on my speaker cones when I know from an engineering stand point there are so many more 'serious' issues with it that when addressed will not only change my perception but will actually make the system better.
And I am sure many will disagree with all of my statements.
WM
Yes, there are certainly many issues with all aspects of loudspeaker design and product which can stand improvement, but without beating it do death, how can anyone be sure that this or any "tweak*" not support by current understanding might not make the systems sound better (for those of us who care not a fig for the measurements) , unless you listen to it with an open mind?
* once a feasible engineering explanation is found or confabulated, whatever "it" is suddenly transforms from "snake oil / crazy tweak" to "recent new understanding of XYZ"
other than that, fair enough
WM,
I'm not entirely clear as to what you're stating. Are you saying that your speakers have more serious problems than the EnABL treatment could correct?
I suppose that in that case, a different set of speakers might help, or are you contemplating re-engineering the drivers themselves?
What drivers are used in your speakers anyway? Actually, if they're a multiway design, there may not be anything wrong with the drivers themselves, as the manufacturer may actually have employed a poorly engineered crossover.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Everyone should read Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science." The section on placebo effect might prove enlightening, and guys, read it before you start howling.
Thomas,
Here's something that may interest you, go to post #20:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/165406-puget-sound-speaker-contest-2010-a-2.html
Best Regards,
TerryO
Hello Again My Friend!
Dave could you please explain in more detail how the driver tells the EnABL2 process where the spot rings should be placed on the driver? Or perhaps it would be easier if you provided a link to an article I can read about this EnABL2 process? And finally is EnABL2 Bud's baby as well?
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
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