The protocol of the contest calls for eliminating , as far as possible, any variables except for the DUT (in this case, the speakers). Back in the 70's, I did most of the experimental design on a project to determine the psychological influences on the perception of sound. One such factor that was found to influence perception were visual cues. Another was preconceived expectations, commonly called "the power of suggestion" which I believe the placebo effect is based on.
To remove (as far as possible) any latent bias, some form of blind testing must be employed, which is exactly what we have attempted to do in this contest, where only the sound of the speaker is a variable.
As for the EnABL'd drivers, I would say that a totally blind A/B/X test would determine if there were an actual difference in sound. If, at the end, the statistical data indicated that there was an actual difference, then and only then, would you test for preference.
The preparation and work that goes into these tests, in order to have sufficient rigor, are rather daunting and as one person put it, "it's about as much fun as sticking needles in your eyes!"
It's no wonder then, why people tend to avoid blind testing, as it's no fun and can produce results that people would rather not consider.
I will offer my opinion that while the EnABL'd drivers sound different from untreated drivers, as the difference isn't too subtle, the question remains: Would you prefer one over the other?
I don't believe there's anyone in a position to make that determination for you.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Mile was certainly prescient when he told H P that "this kinda stuff f..ks people up" (OK, a profane paraphrase, but suitable for dramatic license, I think)
Chris,
Are you referring to "Mr. Spot's" late friend?
Mile Nestorovic - Audio/Electronics Genius - YouTube
Best Regards,
Terry
I suppose that without (hopefully) becoming a shill for Mr. P, it wouldn't be out of place to include some information about Bud's activities in the past, as well as his association with Mile Nestorovic. Taken from a Feb. 2010 review in 6Moons:
I meant my system including room acoustics - seriously Terry rather than place splodges on cones, employing expensive cables with direction arrows or heaven forbid even cable supporters, try some mild room acoustic treatment (amazing improvements can be gained for little cost/effort) - IOW stick to fixing the known engineering limitations first.
If your system then still sucks (it probably is wanting) sure try splodges, cable supporters or drink a lot before listening.
I must say though I would not want to deface my Altecs, my self designed and made full range field coil drivers, nor my QUAD ESLs - hell on the QUADs where would I put them?
As to my main speakers - pics are in the picture thread - yes full range.
WM
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I designed my house around a very good sound room... then i put the system in it.
dave
Very good - and you then acoustically treated the room?
And then you put splodges on the cones of your speakers?
You sell splodge kits yes?
🙂
Doing this to add colour to the cone is cool, Dave, as I said. But by doping/sealing/painting the cone you are changing the characteristics of the cone - added mass different stiffness of the cone material etc - brave to do this ad-hoc...and sell it.
If it moves the cone self resonance and or break up modes to a point where its audibly irksome do you give folks their money back and new drivers?
WM
yes
No, Ed does that. I sell matched pairs of modified drivers -- amongst other things.
I've been modding drivers for 35 years or so. The little spots bring more to the party than can be explained by doping/sealing/painting the cones.
No one has asked for their money back (yet). Many have boughe 2nd 3rd, or even more pairs subsequently though.
dave
WM,
Evidently you've assumed from my posts (on this thread) that I use expensive cables (with direction arrows), and cable supporters, along with the "splodges"????
First, I would like to thank you for recommending acoustic room treatment. However, I have been very vocal on this (and other) forums about the necessity of acoustic treatment for a number of years.
Incidently, I don't use cable supports and I make my own cables (BTW: I don't use arrows to determine which end is the right one, as the correct end is always the one closest at hand).
It's no secret that I have several close friends that design drivers, hold patents on certain innovations in their design and have designed a number of drivers for JBL, Eminence, Exodus Audio, Microsoft and a host of other OEM companies.
I have been involved in the development of several commercial speaker designs and have, on a number of occasions, listened to several of the finest audio systems in the world.
I hope this rather brief, but totally boring, recitation will aid in relieving you of the need to direct your (well intentioned) patronage toward this wide-eyed hick from the wilds of the Northwest.
Best Regards,
TerryO
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I have been designing speaker drivers and cone assemblies for 15 years ... but even if I had not I am an engineer....
I was tempted to ask then what they do and how they do it but then I guess we are out of engineering speak when you do - I have read the forums etc and yeah nuff said?
I see folks apply them to baffle boards and cabinets with excellent results as well?
Do you support this result too - or are they simply succumbing to the placebo effect?
The same placebo effect as when you apply them to cones perhaps?
Have you tried just simply colouring and doping the cones?
I am sure you have! And I guess if you have that the same placebo effect occurs - or not - depending on what you want to hear believe?
IOW just colouring/doping does not work the same as splodges?
🙂
Do the speakers that you splodge sell at a good premium over non splodged ones?
BTW again I think they look cool - why not just sell them as art deco?
So many people are making money out of placebo effects and human fallibility these days - IMO splodges are no different to cable supports and directional cables.... Sadly Even Peter Belt and also Pyramid Power springs to mind.. so many examples.
WM
It me be of interest that a group of new age terrorists recently built a homeopathic bomb utilising weapons grade homeopathy, apparently while the bomb itself did nothing, the placebo effect was absolutely devestating.
Based on the insulting innuendoes expressed in this post, and keeping in mind that the author started off in this vein, I would appreciate it that either:
WM refrain from making further veiled and improper accusations,
or this thread be terminated due to trolling.
Terry
Terry, as I understand, you say that people favoured the modified driver once they knew which one it was, that is pretty suspect you must admit. As for proper double blind trials, they are definately difficult to put on but nothing else has real validity.
It is a shame though that this seems to be such an emotive subject, it reminds me of religion.
Finally I regret if you have been offended in any way.
That's what I had said. As Bud subsequently mentioned, the people attending were allowed to pick which one they wished to hear first. I'm afraid that was my mistake and while I later stated (in post# 23) that Bud was correct (and I wasn't), I suppose I should have been more emphatic.
I apologize for not making it clearer.
Best Regards,
TerryO
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IIRC, Bud also said the speakers evaluated were in cabinets made of different materials.
Has anyone bothered to do a before and after magnitude and phase response test of the same driver in the same box (measured in the same position) before and after the EnABle treatment to see what measurably occurs ?
Art Welter
"If you have to ask why, then you're probably on the right track."
quote from Terry Olson's DIYaudio Forum application
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Hi Terry,
I've heard you mention this before. I happen to be an engineer. (P.Eng registered with APEGBC - Geotechnical discipline). I have a fairly strong background in seismic engineering, although not a PhD level or anything. When I first heard you mention this story I was intrigued to look into the effects you described. I can't say I see any correlation between seismic waves and the kinds of standing waves Bud describes. Unfortunately I still haven't seen a coherent description of what EnABle does and is from Bud. So perhaps I've just missed the point. Despite this, I'm not sure what linking seismicity to loop back waves on a speaker cone would prove anyways.
I've heard both (thanks to Dave) and differences were slight, if at all. It was not A/B. I would like to do more listening with them. Something that has always bothered me is Bud's lack of form when describing the effects of EnABle. He unfortunately makes extraordinary claims that are somehow accepted to be true by EnABle users. However, they are obviously false. They include claims such as:
1. Requires new drivers to NOT require breakin;
2. Allows for perfect off-axis dispersion;
3. Makes the driver play like a real instrument;
4. Opens the driver up to reveal lossed detail in the recording that can't be found by other drivers.
These claims screw him, in my eyes. I'm all for giving it a shot. If someone says an expensive power cord wakes up your system, I'll try it. I've only used the $2 cords that come with your equipment, so how can I say it doesn't make a difference. But if they tell me it'll double my amplifiers output, and it doesn't, I lose sense of the other benefits it may have brought to my system, because the claims were to far over exaggerated.
Like I said, I'd like to try more EnABle. But if Bud expects people to take him seriously, he needs to be serious and write an article or something that describes what it it his work does, and make realistic claims. Oh, and the article should actually make sense, not his typical verbal mess of fancy words that don't actually add to the writing. Writers call that fluffing and it's not appreciated.
I have, but it wasn't done very well. Just in my living room. And it was discussed in the EnABLe theory thread that there were likely some condition changes made between tests. It was more just a check for me to see what EnABLe did to off axis response. I also didn't EXPECT to see ANY differences between the two, as Bud et al had pre-declared that the treatment doesn't really affect FR.
Dave also pointed out in that thread, and I absolutely agree, that the differences were likely more driver variation that anything. Note the splice point was about 300hz and so 100 to 500hz is likely of no use. Also note, a port nearfield was not taken, hence the saddle at 50hz. I see I had phase turned off when I took the screen captures. I have the measurements saved I think. Again though, drive levels were likely different (usually aren't adjusted but I screwed up) so I don't think showing phase would show you anything. One last note, the upper frequencies on the off-axis stuff are quite messy because of the proximity of the mic to a wall.
You can see there are a lot of notes and disclaimers to those measurements. So use them carefully 😉 If anything, I find the measurements more a testiment to how awesome the EL70 is than anything. The measurements look better than the spec sheet 😱
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