just to add to my previous question on the AN Super Cast 12. This one was indicated by the distributor manufacturer as having a more extended high end than the 15 and i couldn't help but notice the high praise the 15 received here. I am currently running my 12's crossed over at around 70Hz through a Reckhorn crossover, the bottom end being handled by a pair of the Goldwood 18" drivers. Overall I like what I hear but can say that distortion creeps in when played loud with complex rock or classical music. Actually jazz quartets and the like play remarkably loud without anything objectionable. Again within limits. I am thinking the EnAbl process may be just the ticket to take these drivers to the next level. Any thoughts or comments much appreciated.
For what it's worth on the science explaining what the EnAbl treatment is doing it sort of reminds me of a comment of one of the aircraft designers at Skunkworks, we make it work and let the theorists explain why later.
For what it's worth on the science explaining what the EnAbl treatment is doing it sort of reminds me of a comment of one of the aircraft designers at Skunkworks, we make it work and let the theorists explain why later.
I was talking with GeoTech about a month or two ago, that had just returned with a team from Sendai, and during the conversation we began talking about some of the similarities of the EnABL treatment to the earthquake. He thought it made a lot of sense, as it was very similar to what they work with.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Appears I am once again not getting notified for posts of interest to me.
Ocatvia, treating the AN 12's and the bass drivers will remove all "speaker" character and leave only the music. This is not something you have heard before, except in live, unamplified performances of human music through human powered musical instruments. That rich, clear, sweet and emotionally powerful character of music is what remains. The more treatment "zones" you attack, the more of this character becomes recognizable. It is all already there, but the interface between drivers and air is skewing the time train nature of the note structures and burying things. Like the leading edge of piano notes and the extended sustain tail in the wood resonators. The individual brush strikes of brushed cymbals, etc. All of this is being reproduced by your entire audio system already, to an extraordinary degree. EnABL will just allow you to open the door into the performance hall and take a seat in the center, fifth row back.
So, is it worth it? Only if what I gushed about above, is what you seek.
Bud
Ocatvia, treating the AN 12's and the bass drivers will remove all "speaker" character and leave only the music. This is not something you have heard before, except in live, unamplified performances of human music through human powered musical instruments. That rich, clear, sweet and emotionally powerful character of music is what remains. The more treatment "zones" you attack, the more of this character becomes recognizable. It is all already there, but the interface between drivers and air is skewing the time train nature of the note structures and burying things. Like the leading edge of piano notes and the extended sustain tail in the wood resonators. The individual brush strikes of brushed cymbals, etc. All of this is being reproduced by your entire audio system already, to an extraordinary degree. EnABL will just allow you to open the door into the performance hall and take a seat in the center, fifth row back.
So, is it worth it? Only if what I gushed about above, is what you seek.
Bud
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Hi Bud. You are preaching to the choir. And the choir appreciates it! 🙂 Everything you describe is the next level I want to bring to the AN Super Cast 12's and the Goldwood 18's. Maybe I will have to get focused and learn how to do the application properly for these drivers. However since I did see a few files that showed the application pattern for other drivers I wondered if there might be something for these as well. If not, that's ok too, I'm happy to learn. Anyway thanks for your comments. Since the intended use was and is for Open Baffle and I was trying for a no tweeter set up I thought the 12's were the best bet as they have a bit more highs than the 15's. Actually I think when I bought mine the 15's weren't even on the market yet. Maybe in the future I might try the Alpair 10.2 or 12, but then again, that old saying - No replacement for displacement - makes the AN12 seem to have an advantage. Same rationale for the Goldwood 18's, I'm running with two now but have two more drivers for new H frames. If 4 18's turns out to be too much paired with the AN12's I can always put them to use in the home theater room!
sk8ter
Attached is a PDF of the PLAN......
This is the titanium section only. I want to show it to you so we can think together upon how to give you a workable template.
The Red blocks are currently alleged to be the pattern guides. The black blocks are where the pattern should be applied, according to what ever theory we are currently flying with...blowing wind, bouncing weights on springs, shock therapy... whatever.
My thought is that you will cut away the material down to the inner red rings of pattern blocks and use them as a guide for application of the dots to the outside of the titanium portion of the cone. First just make sure that with the black dots still attached the overall pattern will fit onto the titanium section.
Understand that these were originally made for Dale Harders new Ohm F drivers and so the fit to Ohms original cones is unknown. I no longer have Ohm F's and haven't for 30 years.
So, print this out, cut it out and see how well it fits. You can use the Readers % of change controls if it doesn't fit, but print the first without centering or sizing turned on.
Bud
Attached is a PDF of the PLAN......
This is the titanium section only. I want to show it to you so we can think together upon how to give you a workable template.
The Red blocks are currently alleged to be the pattern guides. The black blocks are where the pattern should be applied, according to what ever theory we are currently flying with...blowing wind, bouncing weights on springs, shock therapy... whatever.
My thought is that you will cut away the material down to the inner red rings of pattern blocks and use them as a guide for application of the dots to the outside of the titanium portion of the cone. First just make sure that with the black dots still attached the overall pattern will fit onto the titanium section.
Understand that these were originally made for Dale Harders new Ohm F drivers and so the fit to Ohms original cones is unknown. I no longer have Ohm F's and haven't for 30 years.
So, print this out, cut it out and see how well it fits. You can use the Readers % of change controls if it doesn't fit, but print the first without centering or sizing turned on.
Bud
Is everyone doing this Enabl technique or is there a place that can apply the application?
I was getting ready to buy some AN 15" COAX's but was hearing bad things about them so have been discouraged and wondered if I need to think if something else. This might be the ticket but how well can the technique improve the drivers not so good frequency response?
I was getting ready to buy some AN 15" COAX's but was hearing bad things about them so have been discouraged and wondered if I need to think if something else. This might be the ticket but how well can the technique improve the drivers not so good frequency response?
chrapladm
About a year ago I treated two of the AN15 drivers. I thought they were quite wonderful sounding, once corrected . The treatment regimen is not terribly involved, meaning not a lot of different materials and interlocking steps. I used the acrylic damping glue, two way zig, on the back side of the whizzer horn and the outer 3/8" of the main cone, on the back side.
I can either provide you with a pattern set for you to use or I can treat them for you. PM me for pricing please.
Do note that correction of frequency response is not EnABL's goal. We are really aimed at the loss in coherence caused by the loop back storage and steering devices created by resonant nodes in the cone structure. To get a clearer idea of just what this nonintuitive statement might refer to view these u tube videos. Be sure to listen to the talk provided.
resonance - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWadDtIFPNs
resonance4 - YouTube
resonance3 - YouTube
This is actually happening to the signal that is expressed into the air adjacent to the speaker and is what we seek to disperse into uninhibited direct radiation. The result is very clear and coherent information across about 90 db. Rather than the more typical 50 db.
The driver is already doing everything, but the expression into the adjacent air is compromised. The AN 15, with it's near perfect whizzer horn is actually an extremely good driver and once the complex loop back mechanisms are defeated, these are startlingly powerful and transparent drivers.
Bud
About a year ago I treated two of the AN15 drivers. I thought they were quite wonderful sounding, once corrected . The treatment regimen is not terribly involved, meaning not a lot of different materials and interlocking steps. I used the acrylic damping glue, two way zig, on the back side of the whizzer horn and the outer 3/8" of the main cone, on the back side.
I can either provide you with a pattern set for you to use or I can treat them for you. PM me for pricing please.
Do note that correction of frequency response is not EnABL's goal. We are really aimed at the loss in coherence caused by the loop back storage and steering devices created by resonant nodes in the cone structure. To get a clearer idea of just what this nonintuitive statement might refer to view these u tube videos. Be sure to listen to the talk provided.
resonance - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWadDtIFPNs
resonance4 - YouTube
resonance3 - YouTube
This is actually happening to the signal that is expressed into the air adjacent to the speaker and is what we seek to disperse into uninhibited direct radiation. The result is very clear and coherent information across about 90 db. Rather than the more typical 50 db.
The driver is already doing everything, but the expression into the adjacent air is compromised. The AN 15, with it's near perfect whizzer horn is actually an extremely good driver and once the complex loop back mechanisms are defeated, these are startlingly powerful and transparent drivers.
Bud
I have absolutely no idea what those videos have to do with the topic you used them to elucidate. Would you please explain to me what "monkey nuts" have to teach us about the affective nature of the enable process?
Tade
Tade
Tade,
I believe that Bud has explained this at length "many times" over the last few years. The patterns shown on the examples are the frequency induced vibrational patterns that cause disruption between the boundary of the transducer and the air molecules that carry the sound waves. The eNABL process is aimed at preventing these patterns from forming a barrier to the direct transposition of a transducer produced signal to the boundary layer of air molecules.
What you're asking at this point, seems to be that Bud start explaining the whole subject over again, (from the beginning) for your sole benefit. The diyAudio forum anticipated such situations and has thoughtfully provided a search feature. You should certainly avail yourself of this great resource, as it may be helpful in gaining a greater understanding of the "enable" process.
Best Regards,
TerryO
No no Terry, he wants to know how Monkey Nuts can be related to anything that would enable an affective nature. As well ask what earth nuts, ground nuts, goober peas, peanuts, pygmy nuts and pig nuts have to do with affectionate enabling..... ummmmm.... hmmmm...
Truly tade, those monkey nuts are arising on the non minimum phase portion of each and every transducer you have, any where within your possession. You need only look here Enable Tests to see how effectively the enabling of spotted pox fever can overcome and or affect the arising of those lumpy things. Spotted pox is the very worst enemy of monkey nuts and will pop them right off of a transducer, no matter how closely adhered they may be. To see this removal for yourself you will have to slide your mouse pointer on and off of the edge of the picture. And then you will have to imagine all of those monkey nuts you saw earlier, making those nasty repeating patterns as shown on the initial un-poxed test surface and then the clear, clean, smoothly decaying surfaces of the poxy cure.
Anything more precisely drawn would force us to flip over to the thread that this blink comparison is on. This would reignite the smoldering bog and then we would be in it for sure.
Bud
Truly tade, those monkey nuts are arising on the non minimum phase portion of each and every transducer you have, any where within your possession. You need only look here Enable Tests to see how effectively the enabling of spotted pox fever can overcome and or affect the arising of those lumpy things. Spotted pox is the very worst enemy of monkey nuts and will pop them right off of a transducer, no matter how closely adhered they may be. To see this removal for yourself you will have to slide your mouse pointer on and off of the edge of the picture. And then you will have to imagine all of those monkey nuts you saw earlier, making those nasty repeating patterns as shown on the initial un-poxed test surface and then the clear, clean, smoothly decaying surfaces of the poxy cure.
Anything more precisely drawn would force us to flip over to the thread that this blink comparison is on. This would reignite the smoldering bog and then we would be in it for sure.
Bud
Has failed on EV TH350 horn tweeters, no effect at all, some awful MCM woven fiber over molded fiberglass cones, attached the fibers to the FG material and shrieked painfully from that point, and Danny didn't think they helped his GR Research drivers, though I respectfully disagree with him (EnABL'd woofers tested).
Other than that, ALL types of drivers, no matter their shape. Even huge, ancient Maggies can be turned into fabulous sounding devices and you only have to treat the little wooden side panels, not the film surfaces. Horns, mounting faces, rooms, all monkey nuts can be vanquished.
Bud
Other than that, ALL types of drivers, no matter their shape. Even huge, ancient Maggies can be turned into fabulous sounding devices and you only have to treat the little wooden side panels, not the film surfaces. Horns, mounting faces, rooms, all monkey nuts can be vanquished.
Bud
Well thats good to hear because I thought about either trying to tackle a ribbon, plannar or regular clone of a KLF-30.
Bud,
Those wouldn't have belonged to our mutual friend, would they? 😀
Best Regards,
Terry
The story is the same as it is with the other Mark Audio drivers. They start out with amazing resolution and good freedom from "steering" issues. Once treated they have, well, I guess, perfect resolution, at least to a 192/24 twisted pear source. The Fostex FF85's I had here for treatment were a very close competitor to Alpair 7's, once both were fully treated, but still not quite as deep a field of resolution. Treated F200A's and Lowther PM6A/16 ohm silver wire voice coil are both in the same neighborhood.
I would say that my listening experience pointed to the Alpair 7's being more "knit together" for spatial presentation than the 10's, but the 10's were more convincing on large scale music. Both were in Fonken Prime boxes and supported by Planet 10's amazing tapered transmission line woofer towers, which are a perfect foil to these Mark Audio drivers.
In short, it takes a LOT of money to equal the treated performance of these metal Mark Audio drivers.
Bud
I would say that my listening experience pointed to the Alpair 7's being more "knit together" for spatial presentation than the 10's, but the 10's were more convincing on large scale music. Both were in Fonken Prime boxes and supported by Planet 10's amazing tapered transmission line woofer towers, which are a perfect foil to these Mark Audio drivers.
In short, it takes a LOT of money to equal the treated performance of these metal Mark Audio drivers.
Bud