I also have compared BG NX & N with Polymer caps and they are definately great in the digital section but I am still uncertain of using them in the analogue .
So do you think they will sound good in the analogue section of a DAC ?
Yes 
Of course, various listeners through various Hi-Fi systems will reach various conclusions.
The polymers can sound thinner. I found that paralleling three of them fills the bottom somewhat. Maybe not as much as BG's but I think the BG's perhaps a bit unrealistically exaggerate the bass.
Another great mod can be to solder a 0.3uF across the ± pins of each op-amp. I used a X rated Arcotronics R46 series as I had them already. I started with a 0.1uF and worked up to five of those in parallel finding three sounded best until I fitted a single 0.3uF which was far more 'together' with better cleaner transients.
I expect the value might vary with different op-amps and circuits / local PSU caps, etc.
Of course, various listeners through various Hi-Fi systems will reach various conclusions.
The polymers can sound thinner. I found that paralleling three of them fills the bottom somewhat. Maybe not as much as BG's but I think the BG's perhaps a bit unrealistically exaggerate the bass.
Another great mod can be to solder a 0.3uF across the ± pins of each op-amp. I used a X rated Arcotronics R46 series as I had them already. I started with a 0.1uF and worked up to five of those in parallel finding three sounded best until I fitted a single 0.3uF which was far more 'together' with better cleaner transients.
I expect the value might vary with different op-amps and circuits / local PSU caps, etc.
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I still find it hard to believe that if Black Gates were indeed 'the best', that someone hasn't bought up the rights to use their capacitor 'recipe'? I mean they'd make a bundle wouldn't they?
Challenge - if the sleeves were taken off the caps, could you REALLY tell a Black Gate cap from any other quality cap?
Likewise, if some other company used the Black Gate 'recipe' in a cheap cap, with a nondescript sleeving, would you still think they sounded amazing?
That Black Gates are now just about non-obtainable just increases their worth/mystique.
Food for thought perhaps...
Perhaps I have cloth-ears, but I've never thought Black Gates were THAT good/amazing, and I've used both the 'N' type and 'Standard' variety in quite a few projects over the years. I bet my Hi-Fi Street Cred will go right down now
Challenge - if the sleeves were taken off the caps, could you REALLY tell a Black Gate cap from any other quality cap?
Likewise, if some other company used the Black Gate 'recipe' in a cheap cap, with a nondescript sleeving, would you still think they sounded amazing?
That Black Gates are now just about non-obtainable just increases their worth/mystique.
Food for thought perhaps...
Perhaps I have cloth-ears, but I've never thought Black Gates were THAT good/amazing, and I've used both the 'N' type and 'Standard' variety in quite a few projects over the years. I bet my Hi-Fi Street Cred will go right down now
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We can presume not. Or that Jelmax won't sell or license. Apparently they were made on a Rubycon production line. Audio is tiny tiny profit compared to the millions of caps used for everything else. Corporations don't bother about audio as the profits are too small.
That statement suggests you've never heard them.
I'd say no as we've just had to forget about them and move on.
More likely your transduction equipment was not revealing enough. But it would have to be fairly bad to mask the black gate difference which is, in the main, a louder bass, or mighty slamming bass and general huge increase in transient response, depending on the equipment and where they are used. Sometimes they sound a bit fuzzy and muddled. The standard ones often sounded coarse and grainy.
The asking price for them was ridiculous. If they'd been a sensible price they'd have sold many more I expect, and would still be making and selling them.
However, the Nichicon Conductive Polymer is better sounding in most ways in most places that I've tried them. Of course, there's a lack of voltage over about 16. There are higher voltage but only very small capacitance. Though I could personally never justify the £80 price tag for 4 small BGN for my amplifiers early stage.
Are the Mundorf electrolytics as good as claimed? I've not looked for any reviews.
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Hi IanAS,
I am going to try some of the Nichicon Conductive Polymer and see how they sound. I went to their website and read the tech information,amazing how much they remove the ripple content at least there good for ripple rejection and if there that fast might be a good use in audio,as YOU have found out,so I'll give them a try!
Thanks for sharing!
I am going to try some of the Nichicon Conductive Polymer and see how they sound. I went to their website and read the tech information,amazing how much they remove the ripple content at least there good for ripple rejection and if there that fast might be a good use in audio,as YOU have found out,so I'll give them a try!
Thanks for sharing!
1) There is nothing wrong with my Hi-Fi, thank you. Nor my hearing.
2) Secondly - just because I wasn't blown out of my chair by their difference, do not assume I have not heard them either. I am NOT saying they sound rubbish by any means, but the hype around these caps is ridiculous, not to mention the prices (esp. since they ceased production). I've used them on the outputs of DACs, (Peter Daniel NOS), outputs of pre-amps, feedback cap in amps (Naim and also a GB150D) and cathode bypass in valve amps. They sounded OK, but no better than any decent film cap. This running in for 200+ hours - if one believes the hype - is absolutely silly also. I don't know about you but I'd prefer to listen to a great sounding amp after a few hours, not sit there for 200+ hours knowing I'm not hearing it as its best. That's not the mark of a well designed capacitor, to my mind...
3) Have you tried - as I asked before - spotting the Black Gate sound between two caps that have been skinned, so you wouldn't know which was being played?
A bit worse IMO. Nothing to get too excited about. Nice if space is limited, that's all.
I concur completely
It's a sweeping statement to say that no-one who wanted the best from their equipment would use them (capacitors, especially electrolytic) in the signal path as I know one person with £10,000, or so, speakers who does. I personally don't as to my ears they (all caps, including film caps) very badly damage the signal integrity, which is why I have a 'DC coupled' system.
I have many friends and customers who also now have heard the bad effects of caps in the signal path and chosen to not have them.
If someone is using something with a DC offset that needs a cap then I suggest instead using something that doesn't.
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I've been upgrading good quality hi-fi for 17 years, so yes really, I've pretty much heard it all.
With some systems it's super easy to tell. Most good quality systems are in reality far from good quality and muddle so badly that one can barely tell anything.
Black Gate there is no difference, when they're COUNTERFEIT!
Hello all,
Someone recently posted:
What I received shocked me: the "Black Gates" were obviously lower grade Rubycon caps that had been wrapped with a label showing them as "Black Gate". I'll hope that my seller was also the unwitting victim of another, dishonest seller(he seemed very nice).
Having used Genuine Black Gates for years, I spotted the fakes by looking at the base near the leads. Black Gates have a black, rubbery plug where the leads protrude, while the fakes have the more common(cheap) phenolic disc.
Now for the proof- pictures:
The genuine Black Gate is on the right, the fake is on the left.
Moral:You can't here a difference if there isn't one...
Please beware of fakes being sold as the real thing (unwittingly or NOT)!!
-Chas
Hello all,
Someone recently posted:
Well, I recently purchased some Black Gate caps from a fellow in Europe, off the diyA Swap Meet.
What I received shocked me: the "Black Gates" were obviously lower grade Rubycon caps that had been wrapped with a label showing them as "Black Gate". I'll hope that my seller was also the unwitting victim of another, dishonest seller(he seemed very nice).
Having used Genuine Black Gates for years, I spotted the fakes by looking at the base near the leads. Black Gates have a black, rubbery plug where the leads protrude, while the fakes have the more common(cheap) phenolic disc.
Now for the proof- pictures:
The genuine Black Gate is on the right, the fake is on the left.
Moral:You can't here a difference if there isn't one...
Please beware of fakes being sold as the real thing (unwittingly or NOT)!!
-Chas
Attachments
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I have four BG FK 100V 100uF that I bought from Michael Percy Audio maybe 10 years ago that have that phenolic disc. I assume they are genuine as he's a BG dealer of some size, and, were there fakes around that long ago?
Apparently Black Gates were made on a Rubycon production line.
They have the 'K' imprinted in the metal top.
Did they sound lively and faster, I seem to recall they did, but that was when they were brand new and at first listen, but it's been all those years since I fitted those four. They've just been soldered into and amplifier since. I do recall that I first had BG F 100V 100uF in there first and they gave a too grainy harsh brightness. The amps were 'livened' up by them but I preferred it without. I threw on the FK instead and left them to run in for a few months, as I had with the BG F's, but possibly never did the on / off comparison. Though they didn't have that fatiguing excessive edginess of the F.
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I've never seen any branded cap with such a base. Did you take the skin off them ?
No.
This is the way they came.
Well... Of the 30 some-ought BG caps I've bought from Parts Connexion, and Michael Percy himself (FK's too), I've never had one with the phenolic "bung"... Then again, I could be mistaken...
I only meant my post as a cautionary aside for those in quest for Black Gates- especially since there are verified fakes coming from the Far East.
Best regards
p.s. I in no way am insinuating my seller had anything but good intentions
But of course certain types of BG caps do have that phenolic disc. Attached pic shows BG FK 2200/35 and BG STD 1000/50 and those are genuine caps.
Attachments
OK, Then I must have been mistaken.
It does beg the question, however:
Why would a premium product, manufactured to sell for many times the cost of standard quality products, use a quality rubber bung on some of their production and then use a cheap phenolic disc on a more expensive model...?
I'll leave it to the cognoscenti here to sort out these mysteries...
Thanks for allowing me to participate in the discussion. I'll go solder them into my preamp now.
-Chas
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